Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Hi, I'm Aaron Swarovski
Speaker 1 00:00:03 And I'm Austin to Shaw.
Speaker 0 00:00:05 This is between the keyboards This week. We're going to be talking about feedback.
Speaker 1 00:00:14 That's right. And this idea that if you are a designer and you're going to have a client, then you are going to have feedback.
Speaker 0 00:00:23 You're going to have you back totally and natural or of the job. It's interesting because over the course of our careers, I would say that majority of the job is navigating feedback. So not only will you have to address your internal feedback of your creative directors and your peers and making sure everybody's on the same page, but you'll also have feedback from your clients. And if it's an agency than your client's clients, you've got layers within those clients that get to have their turn. And sometimes you even get the, my 11 year old son saw me looking at this file and he has a little feedback. So it's just interesting. You have to like learn how to navigate it. You know, that's just part of the job. It's a natural part of the job.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Revisions revisions are more or less the process of how you start a project.
Speaker 0 00:01:19 Totally. So let me ask you, how many times have you John something and sent it and had a client go? Yep, that's it? I know there were another two weeks left on the job and I paid you all this money, but this is what we're running with.
Speaker 1 00:01:33 You know, I have had a couple few instances. I don't know if it's ever been that, just like it's, you know, but I've have had like, here's that first pass and I'm ready. I got I'm ready for notes. I'm ready to address it. And they're just like, awesome. Done. I've had that happen, but it's also on a much smaller scale, right? This is me, my, my direct client kind of small oppor, but I've had, I've had a few instances of instances of that, but You know, this is, uh, this is going on 20 years. Yeah. Mostly by far, mostly it is not that way to view is the studio ever had that? No, you're like, no, no way. No,
Speaker 0 00:02:25 It's just that we have had like, oh my God, this is amazing. I don't even know what to say, like where we have to walk them through the process of giving feedback. But like,
Speaker 1 00:02:39 And I think the scale that, that makes sense because it's a, it's a different scale that we're talking about, um, more, more lines or levels of approval that need to happen. Um, but yeah, I have, uh, I, I pulled up a dictionary definition of feedback. I like definitions. I like words. So as a noun information about reactions to a product person's performance of a task, et cetera, which is used as a basis for improvement. So I like that that information about reactions to a product or a performance. So you presenting, you know, we talk about this all the time. It's become almost second nature. This idea of work in progress, um, which is something that I have to remember with students. They don't always understand that that's something I'm basically teaching them, which is used as a basis for improvement. I think this is important for students, the feedback isn't about trying to tear your work down as much as it's about trying to help it improve and fulfill a brief.
Speaker 0 00:03:44 I think that's really important to really be able to address feedback. You have to have some kind of goal, some kind of definition of success of what success is, you know, so, and then as you get feedback, you kind of kind of process it through that lens of like, well, okay, well, how do I deal with this feedback trying to get here? Okay, well, let's talk about feedback for students. Cause I think you're right, like coming into the industry. I think some students are prepared more than others, but I feel like sometimes students don't really understand that feedback is like a major, major part of
Speaker 1 00:04:31 Right. That essentially what they're preparing for through their academic journey is to enter a profession that is based around feedback.
Speaker 0 00:04:39 Yeah. Okay. So let's talk about critiques. Cause I loved critiques in college. I loved showing the work. I love talking about the work. Yeah. It's an opportunity to break it apart. Talk about what's working and what's not, you know,
Speaker 1 00:04:55 Right. No, absolutely. And I think something that I do, especially for newer students, younger students, as they were just getting into their major, who maybe haven't even been in a, in a critique before. Right. It's just, just to frame it, you know, what is a critique? What's the point of it, right. We're going to be looking at work, we're going to be talking about work. We're going to do it for the purpose of trying to help make it better. So it's usually, I'll, I'll suggest, you know, what's look at the piece is what's working. Can you identify what's working in it? And then what can be improved? What can be made better or what's not working, but I like to frame it probably
Speaker 0 00:05:35 Well with the kiddos, it's good to kiddos, but with students it's good to lean on positive, which
Speaker 1 00:05:41 Exactly I've found that to be helpful because just you can get really, I I've seen students get defensive and get really sensitive about it. And so just to frame it that way also does this make sure that they're staying in bounds, that they're talking about what we're looking at. And I try to, I try to approach it from a really objective standpoint in the sense of, you know, let's look at this formerly, right? There's the composition, you know, we can look at it in terms of positive, negative space. We can make it in terms of dark and light values. We can, I'm getting feedback from my dog's feedback.
Speaker 0 00:06:17 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:06:19 Yeah, yeah. Um, we can look at it in terms of, you know, I don't know if I just said contrast light and dark, but that's always one that I'm looking at
Speaker 0 00:06:28 Color theory. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:06:29 Totally. Exactly. Exactly. And then with motion, it's like, you know, timing, we can look at that purely as like, is this thing, is it up long enough for us to read? Is it way too long? And I've completely like gone somewhere. Like, like there's some real, you know, without getting into even the subjective qualities of it, you know, so search is leading them in how to critique is important. Um, sometimes it's, you know, we'll look at a piece and I'll just put it up in a, replay it down and I'll say, you know, all right. So what do you think? And sometimes it can be silenced. I'm like, well, do you like it? And they're like, yes. And I'm like, okay, great. What do you like about it? Right. Like, like to, to pull it out of them, to get them to start identifying some of those qualities and to, to build, uh, I guess really a culture of critique and feedback that feels supportive, that feels that they can be vulnerable.
Speaker 1 00:07:25 That they're not just going to get torn down for the sake of getting torn down, but maybe they will get torn down, but to be built back up a little better, you know? And, and one thing I do working with style frames and design boards, right. One of the first things we'll do is like, well, we'll put up a design board and I'll ask if every style for him feels like it belongs. Right. That's a good idea. And then, and then there'll be like, yes. And I'll be like, okay, great. Why? And then they'll look and they'll be like, well the color palette it's, it's consistent throughout. I'm like, yes. And then, you know, texture is consistent or the type faces can, it's all about identifying patterns of consistency that, that hold that style together.
Speaker 0 00:08:10 And I want there to be a class for all designers, like motion, any kind of design that is required and elective that you start with one project. And then for 10 weeks, every week you have to revise it based on either an alteration in the brief or a change in direction or just feedback. So that they're used to the process of taking this thing that they made, that they love and reconfiguring it and reworking it. And oh, the audience changed now let's do that. Or, oh, this client saw and they decided, I don't like this color palette at all. Or they want to go back to the old logo. We get that stuff all the time. So it's like, oh, that would be an interesting class to see kids really kind of took it seriously.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 It's great because it is, it's true. Like in a, you know, in a class most of the time I give feedback, if a student doesn't follow it, you know, there's not a ton I can do about it. Right. They don't, they don't feel like there's, um, they look at it much more as a suggestion than as a dirt, uh, explicit command. You must do this, you know, and I've had these types of, uh, what w like, like collaborative, like extra on partners who have sponsored a class. I've, I've learned a few of those and it I've had it. It's interesting. And there's, there's sort of probably two ideas from that. One of them being that, you know, we'll do a mid point with this external partner we'll present the work. The client will give feedback. I'll take notes. I see the students are taking notes.
Speaker 1 00:09:53 I'm shaking my head. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. The students are shaking their heads. I'm like, okay, we're all on the same page. You know, I'll check in with them a couple of days later to see how they've addressed the notes and they haven't. Right. And I'm like, w what happened? Right. Like, like I S I imagine that we all heard the same feedback in exactly the same way, and that's not always the case. And that, that it does take experience just time being in, being in the dry and being in the trenches and listening, like getting the feedback, having to respond quickly, having to iterate, having asked for clarification, and that students just don't doze do not always have that. Or they just assume that they can ignore it. If they don't agree. I was like, you know, like, I'm like, why, why isn't this more blue? And they're like, well, we didn't, we didn't think that was a good idea. And I'm like, that's what the, the client, we got to show them more blue, because that's what they asked for specifically, this isn't like up for debate. And so to educate them in that process is, uh, you know, that that's been interesting. That's
Speaker 0 00:11:06 Funny.
Speaker 1 00:11:11 Do you ever get like, emotions kicked up from feedback?
Speaker 0 00:11:17 Yeah. I especially get emotions around it when I know that. Right. And when I know it's going to be near impossible to address them, so my emotions come from a different place of like, fuck, you noticed they, uh, they caught it, you know?
Speaker 1 00:11:34 Yeah. You're not getting defensive as, and taking it as a measure of yourself worth.
Speaker 0 00:11:41 Yeah. No. And then it's like, okay, well, how can I really genuinely solve the problem? Um, and if I'm stuck, I ask somebody for a fresh eye. Cause sometimes that's what you need, like to take a step back and say like, Hey, where is this feedback really coming from? What is really the problem? And what am I not thinking about to solve this? You know? Cause I do believe there's always an answer. It's just that like, sometimes the production paradigm is like, they need to see something in two hours or we only have X number of dollars for it, or we can't go back and reshoot. And that was a problem. So like how do we kind of use the process to like still continue to make this better, but
Speaker 1 00:12:22 All right. What about the senior artists that you work with or that you've seen? Why do you think it is that gets them triggered emotionally?
Speaker 0 00:12:31 I think that they feel ownership over the work. I think in general, whether you're younger or older, it's hard just to not take it personally. Like this thing that you created is somewhat of your baby and somebody calling you ugly or saying it doesn't work or disagreeing with your point of view is can feel prickly. It doesn't feel necessarily constructive sometimes how feedback is given. Sometimes it's just
Speaker 1 00:12:59 The way it's delivered.
Speaker 0 00:13:00 Yeah. That's really hard. Or it's not necessarily saying what's working, it's just saying what isn't, you know, everybody's style of how they give feedback is a little bit different. So yeah. People can get real emotional about it. It can also be,
Speaker 1 00:13:15 Yeah. I was going to say, I made me think of a funny story where, um, I was, I was pretty junior, it's going way back now. And, um, I was working on this project and then the client came to the studio and I thought it was like in a really good place. And I was like, okay, cool. And we, and, and we showed it to her and the client was just like, okay, good start. You know, it was like that moment where you just knew like, oh, like, this is not like where I think it is, is not where they think it is. And that was his, that was the nice way of them saying, you know, this needs a lot of work still.
Speaker 0 00:13:54 Well, but it also was a way of acknowledging your work so far. So, I mean, that was the best he could do in terms of, I'm assuming it's a guy, but like in terms of
Speaker 1 00:14:07 That became a little bit of a meme that, um, you know, my, my friend, my other freelance friends who were there at the time, we would sort of bust each other's shops all the time and just be like, good start, you know, whenever we did anything at that point, it's a good start, good start. Which basically means like, yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 0 00:14:24 Yeah. Well, it's not done, you know? Yeah. And I think a good reality check is to remember that like actually the client owns the work like very practically, like it is theirs to put out there to reflect them. So even though you feel like you put your all into it and it represents your point of view and it was your talent and craftsmanship that got it there, that actually they're the one that's got to wear. It, they're the ones living with it. It's their house that they're living in. And I think the architect metaphor is perfect because, you know, an architect designs a house for you, the client, if it was just exactly what the architect wanted, it likely wouldn't service you. So you have to be open to the idea that somebody else has to live in this and live with it. And you, the maker might have no kids and seven dogs, you know, but you know, the person living, it might have, you know, a big family and want a home office.
Speaker 1 00:15:25 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:15:27 And maybe a big open kitchen on a living Ramana, this weather, like, you know,
Speaker 1 00:15:32 No. Then that MERS comes to that listening and recognizing like, what is, what is the designer's role in a project, right. There's a creative problem solver for someone else, someone else's problem. Right. You're helping them get there. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:15:48 And I think just that awareness that you're working on behalf of somebody else who has to own it and where it helps take some of the emotions away. Cause it's like, Hey, if you want 17 bathrooms in this house, like, okay, 17 bathrooms, it is like, that's a lot of porcelain, but you know,
Speaker 1 00:16:12 A lot of house
Speaker 0 00:16:13 Guests, a lot of house guests. Yeah. Maybe it's an end.
Speaker 1 00:16:18 Well, and, and it's interesting, it's this idea of being of service. I know for me, that's helped a lot because sometimes it's, it's even with the idea of like putting too much pressure on myself to like get it to be what I think is the best thing ever. Right. Because it's, you know, I want it to be as, as good as it can be whatever I'm working on. Right. I want to give it my all, but sometimes it's like, that can almost get a little bit stressful. So if it's, if it comes, it's like this isn't about me as much as it's about me helping this client solve their problem. Right. And then I put myself in a position of service rather than trying to make it about me or Mike, how good I am at this thing I'm doing, you know, you know, and I think that helps me.
Speaker 0 00:17:05 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. I mean, I, you know, to put that like in a very practical real-world sense, like, you know, we do a lot of those Instagram stuff and it's always like logo first logo, first sound off environment, sound off environment. And it's like, okay. So when you have an artist kind of pushing to like kind of take a few seconds to get to the logo or something like that. And they're like, well, let's kind of build, has got to do all these things. It's like, yeah. But like their business objective is to get somebody to like, actually look at it and engage and have brand awareness as they're kind of moving through this environment. And if it's mid animation and it doesn't capture anybody in, you've lost the opportunity to tell them that, you know?
Speaker 1 00:17:48 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:49 It's gone.
Speaker 1 00:17:50 So yeah. So,
Speaker 0 00:17:53 So even if they don't stop, you see that as Bi-State farm or by, you know, Liberty mutual or by some other insurance company, you know that, so that you at least get that like quick thing that they paid the media for. Right. And then it's your job as a designer storyteller. I kind of keep them like and do that to do both those things, but they have metrics and business objectives and all these other things that you have to really like, you can't just toss that out the window. Like those are the realities of your job. So to get emotional about a mandate is challenging to kind of help people through. Right.
Speaker 1 00:18:36 Yeah. Right. Because it's yeah. Yeah. I think there's this, uh, that idea of like healthy detachment, right? Like, or almost knowing where to put the emotion and like where, where it's like yeah. The, to put emotion against the guardrails doesn't make any sense. Right, right. Like it's not going to get you anywhere.
Speaker 0 00:18:55 I think that leads a good leads us into talking about how to create a process that allows for the right feedback at the right time. It's really important when you set up a job for you, whether you're just one person working directly with client, especially for us as a studio or a lot of
Speaker 1 00:19:17 Things. Lots of parts.
Speaker 0 00:19:20 Yeah. Anything you can do to create clarity is super helpful and important. So building out a schedule, identifying days on the schedule, being very specific about when they're going to see something, what they're going to see and what we're going to need back. Also getting into how much turnaround time feedback is. We have clients that like get on the phone and give us feedback and we're off and running. But right now we have a client that's like, Hey, we need three days to turn around feedback because I take it to my team. Then my team blesses it, they take it to the client. Then it goes a couple layers in the client. There's one client that's not really available all the time. So we need at least three days to turn feedback around. That's great. Cause then we're not sitting, waiting and going, like what's going on over there is everything. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:03 It's great that they told you that. Right. As opposed to just like you present and then crickets for three days go by like WTF. What happened three. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:20:14 So that's great. I mean, but also I think individual artists need to think about their process. You know, when you don't check in for feedback to your creative director until six o'clock, you're basically guaranteeing that you're going to work late all the time. And that the creative director is going to have to work all late all the time. And then probably it's going to delay the posting, which means your producer has to work late and then the client. So like all of this stuff happens after you. So if you develop a personal process and practice where you are checking in at two, so that you can tell at two o'clock your creative director and producer and your teammates, Hey, like it's probably going to be more like six 30 to address all that or seven, they can plan. They can let the client know. They can say, Hey, is tonight essential or can we post first thing in the morning? Like they can start figuring all of that out. But that's really important. I think for individuals to think about like how they definitely impact that feedback loop. And they are an essential ingredient in, in, in that process. You know? So, and it's a quality of life thing at that point, if you're sending work late and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1 00:21:34 Well, something that I do with, with my clients working direct to client as a small small operator is once the design is approved, I tend to rather than just try to rough out the entire spot, I'll do a really tight motion test or two. Right. And I might start with the open or I might go to like, just what I think is an interesting shot in the piece and really polished that post-it for the client, get feedback repost until they sign off. And then that becomes my style frame in motion for how I'm going to iterate and apply that to the entire piece. And it's just an efficient process. You know, if I did the entire rough cut, posted it, and then they weren't feeling it. Like I've wasted a lot,
Speaker 0 00:22:20 Sorry, a lot of time. And it's your fault. Like you like you, you have to give them the opportunity to influence the outcome. You know what people don't understand. That's what I think people don't understand. Like they're not going to see this amazing thing you've created and not give comments. It's just like, have you invited the comments at the right time during the process so that you're not totally stripped apart,
Speaker 1 00:22:48 Wait. And with new clients is just a little bit of educating them that like, Hey, this is what we're going to, this is how we're going to do it. Like I'm going to work on a motion test. I'll post that. If you like, how that looks, we'll continue and iterate that into the entire piece and just letting them know that, okay, here's the,
Speaker 0 00:23:06 Yeah, I'm actually curious if any of the people listening have chips for anything in their process specifically that they do that really helps the feedback loop because this is like, I think the part of our, like our, our talk here or discussion where we're really getting into like how, if you set the table, right, the meal will flow, you know? So
Speaker 1 00:23:34 That's a fun metaphor
Speaker 0 00:23:36 Tables. You gotta, yeah, you gotta have the right dishes. You gotta have everything out. You gotta know the menu. Where is my salad for? There is not enough problems on this fork. Anyway. What if the feedback is just the worst? We started talking about pirates and avatar and how nobody said to James Cameron, you can't do that. Like, it's going to be the artist that says James' friend, fellow type lover.
Speaker 1 00:24:14 Not the best idea here,
Speaker 0 00:24:17 Not the best use of this. And I think, but I think you can always just play this SNL video to say like, you are making such a big mistake, James Cameron Papyrus, avatar mistake that there will be an SNL video about you.
Speaker 2 00:24:40 If you show me this before I don't even do this is literally piracy. Maybe that was the starting point, but they clearly,
Speaker 3 00:24:46 But whatever they did it wasn't enough.
Speaker 1 00:24:53 There's, there's a lot of ways to persuade. Right. And
Speaker 0 00:24:57 Yeah, that could be one of them. Yeah. That could be one of them. Ryan Gosling can do it on behalf of us at this point. Okay. So here's another thing like that we get into you build out your schedules, you create processes. There's always feedback at the last second and there's just no time to do it. You're like, how did that person never see this before? Like what the hell,
Speaker 1 00:25:25 If you just add a time
Speaker 0 00:25:27 At a time, so there's two things you can do in my experience. And again, I'm open to other suggestions and I'm open obviously to your suggestions also. But in my experience, there's two things to do. You have to acknowledge the ask because if you just say, that's not a problem may not be my role, but it's certainly there. So you have to acknowledge it. I understand why you're asking for this change, but we're like delivering in three hours. So I suggest we lean into avenues that address the intention of the node, because what you're specifically asking for can't be done, but let's think about it. If you want the logo to be more prominent, like maybe the background, maybe it shouldn't be over footage, maybe like ready. There's like suggestions that we can kind of do to address it without, you know, so you're
Speaker 1 00:26:22 Offering solutions as opposed to just a hard,
Speaker 0 00:26:25 No. Right. And that could at least kind of maybe get you closer. I can't tell you how many times this works. This works a lot because usually there's an issue that they're trying to solve and they're giving you what they believe or what their boss believed was the way to do that. But it might not be. And I think they're open to just that last minute change happening. However it can happen. It's just like, oh no, there's at a time. So in a way you kind of come out being a hero there. The other thing is you got to say, no, no, we can not do that today. We just not going to happen. I'm really sorry. You know that these other ideas, I have no idea how we're going to accomplish that. But if we push our delivery from in three hours to in three days and we had $12,000 to the budget, so I can build out a team and build, we can get this done.
Speaker 0 00:27:25 And that happens a lot. And a lot of times there's a signature that goes on an overage. Usually it means that another one of our jobs that's about to pick up, gets a little derailed or so we have to manage that internally. And that like really, really sucks. But you know, asset management, you know, that's always part of our moving puzzle. You know, the scope can cut it, we call it scope, creep, the scope kind of creeps. And the way to keep scope creep under control is to create, um, a clear bid. You know, this is what we're going to do. This is when it's going to be done. This is how you can influence it done. You know, if all of a sudden there's a new nine 16 deliverable and everything was built 16, nine, it's going to take a little time to change all the layouts in our piece from this, to this.
Speaker 0 00:28:19 So more money, more time, time. And they're used to that. I mean their clients. So they're used to, you know, that's how it is on their side too. When somebody wants more of something, you don't just give it to them, they pay for it. So you pay for it. So there's like an appropriate way to do that so that they feel like they're not necessarily being swindled. Cause sometimes they get like that. Like why it shouldn't be that much. And it's like, well, yeah, it is. You just kinda gotta explain like what that means for your process. How many artists is going to take, how long it's gonna take. And then they're like, oh, okay, well then I can explain that to the people that are then going to ask me for backup, like why that's happening. Okay. I feel like I've talked enough about feedback. Cool. But I'm looking forward to the feedback, our list.
Speaker 1 00:29:13 Yeah. Hearing, hearing from y'all. What kind of feedback do you have? Maybe feedback, stories, feedback for us. Tell us how we're doing
Speaker 0 00:29:23 No feedback. We do love it. And um, we're good at not taking it personally. So no feedback about the extra chin. We know, um, the hair, he knows feedback about the beard. It's looking, you know, my husband commented that it looks nice that it's tidy the beard. Yeah. Okay. Before and after from when we started right now and he was really, but you gave me some feedback on my hair. I said, how you like, I grow the hair out and you were like, Nope, Nope. Only one of us can have beautiful flowing locks. I mean, why are you taking my signature look? I mean, that's mainly laziness. It's lazy. I'm just lazy. Okay. Well thank you everybody for listening. We'll see you next time in two weeks.
