Interview with Hung Le and Ricardo Roberts of Bien

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Aaron Zarovsky. [00:00:03] Speaker B: And I'm Austin Shaw. [00:00:04] Speaker A: This is between the Keyframes Episode 28, interview with Hung Lee and Ricardo Roberts at BN, an inclusive motion design studio. [00:00:17] Speaker B: It's hello time. What's up, everybody? We're here. We're here with Hung and Ricardo from BN Motion Design Studio. Super excited to get to chat with you guys today. So welcome. Welcome to between the Keyframes. [00:00:34] Speaker C: Thank you, Austin. Thank you, Aaron. Appreciate it so much. [00:00:39] Speaker A: Okay, guys, tell us about your background. Yeah. Now we've gotten to know each other a little bit through what I call, like, the circuit. The circuit of other motion design studio owners and conferences and all of that. But I've been very inspired by you guys. Not just, like, the work you do, but how you do it. And I think that's a little bit of what we're going to focus on here. But can you tell me how you guys met and how you decided to start a studio? [00:01:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I'll take that one, Hong, if that's cool. So, first off, Aaron, we're incredibly humbled by that, and we're humbled to be here with both of you all. So just want to put that out there, because we followed you way before BN, and you guys do stellar, amazing work, and you're literally changing the industry. So, again, we're just happy to be here. So hung and I met because my background, I was actually a motion designer back in the day. That's kind of how I started. And I was working at a live action production company, and we kind of had fallen on hard times. It was, like, in the mid 2000s, there was a recession happening, and the owners at the production company said, hey, we want you to do sales and marketing. We want to keep you, want to have you hang out, but there's no work to be done. So why don't you do sales and marketing? So I was like, shit, okay. I guess. [00:02:08] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:02:08] Speaker C: And then. So I had to find a replacement for a motion designer. And I had realized at that time I was, like, a meh motion designer. I didn't have the talent to go really far, so I wanted to find someone who's amazing. And so I started trolling the mograph Net Forum. Mograph Net is a, like. It was a legendary place to meet other motion designers back in the day. And so I met hung on there, and kind of the rest is history. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah. What year was that? Just want a context. [00:02:42] Speaker C: I want to say it was, like, 2006. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Okay. So early. Yeah. [00:02:47] Speaker C: Was it 2006, Hong? [00:02:50] Speaker D: Back in the day, yeah. And I think that was around that time when I started to freelance, too. So you and I met online? We met online, right. When I decided to go freelance. [00:03:09] Speaker B: That's sort of around the same time Aaron and I met. [00:03:12] Speaker D: Right. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Mid 2100%, 2006. [00:03:16] Speaker B: But East Coast. So you guys were on the West Coast? [00:03:21] Speaker D: We are now. But back then, Ricardo was on the East coast and I was in. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Right on. And then I'm always curious about hearing people's backgrounds. How'd you get over to Houston and what was happening there? [00:03:41] Speaker D: Yeah, so I was born and raised in Vietnam. I did not leave Vietnam until I turned 16 or so. So, yeah, I was born right at the fall of Saigon, the end of Vietnam War. And my family had a very hard time living there because we were on the American side. Right. So when the Communists took over, we were not favored, let's just put it that way. So in a way, we lived through poverty. We actually had to stand in line to get food, and we had to sell things off to basically have money to buy things to survive. Yeah. So we had such a hard time that my family at that time, which is my grandmother, who's 95 now and still living, she was like the matriarch of the family. So both my dad and my grandfather were in jail at that time. So she was like the matriarchal family and said, this is not going to work, so we're going to start sending you guys off by boat. So we paid in gold so that we could leave the country in waves. So I actually did three attempts with my brother, my mother, another aunt, and we never made it. But the second time of that trip that we tried to do, we actually were captured by the pirates, and then they hauled us back and put us in prison. So kind of a cool question to ask pirates. So just kind of all kind of questions you can raise there. So after three, that was only the second time we tried again. Just like that wasn't enough. What is it? Not dramatic enough for a kid? Let's do it again. But after three times, we said that was enough. But my dad actually tried eleven times, and he made it finally. And that's how he finally kind of sponsored us here when I was 16. And then Houston, I had a pretty humble beginning. Sony Graphic Design Locally, University of Houston had a great graphic design program. The teachers came from Grandbrook, so they brought that conceptual thinking to us. And I had a great program there. And, yeah, my first job happened to be at the TV station locally, and I fell in love with Brightcon design. And back then, we all looked at the same people, the Greenberg and all those things, and we're like, wow, this is awesome. I would love to do this. And, yeah, I worked locally, thinking that would stay locally in Houston because my family was there mostly. But, yeah, after a few years, I just said, you know what? It's time to break out. I want to learn. So go on mograph. Net, put portfolio up there and say, I want to freelance. Right. And then shortly after, actually, I put my portfolio up. Aaron, you didn't know this, but DK called me while I was still full time at my job, and they said, hey, I saw your portfolio online. Can you come to the office by Monday? And it was already Wednesday. [00:07:02] Speaker A: That sounds like. [00:07:06] Speaker D: I just play it cool. I said, yeah, sure, why not? There you go. [00:07:14] Speaker A: Wow. Well, just like, what an incredible, humbling story. I want to know more, and there's so much more to talk about. But certainly when we do talk about diversity, inclusion, equity, it's kind of, in a way, going to mean so much more coming from what somebody with such a background, with such a story literally captured. [00:07:39] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:07:41] Speaker A: It's like movie. [00:07:42] Speaker D: I told that story, in a way. [00:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:46] Speaker D: I think that story, I did not want to bring it up as a bragging rights, in a way, but it's kind of the foundation for what we do now. [00:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah. And it certainly Makes you realize what we do is a privilege, especially to be creatives and to create. And just like, as a baseline, wherever you're at, what we are doing is a privilege. The fact that we get to choose starting just baseline. Yeah. And that's just where you're born, where you enter the universe is the factor in that has nothing to do with anything other than that. [00:08:31] Speaker B: Well, the thing I thought about, and I want to be sensitive, is that when a project goes awry and I'm complaining, I'm like, man, I really don't have anything to complain about. Right. That's where I was thinking with. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And, Ricardo, what was your journey to finding motion design? [00:08:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So my journey was very winding and very, I guess, different, but nowhere near along the level of things that hung went through. But. So my mom is Ecuadorian and my dad is American. So he was a Peace Corps volunteer, and he went to. Actually, he fought in the Vietnam War, and then he turned peaceful. He was like, this is not for me. So he was in Vietnam. That's how he got his college education. Then he joined the Peace Corps. He met my mom, and my mom, at the time, she was a director at an orphanage. In Quito, in Ecuador. So I was born there and lived there until I was almost five. And then they both decided to pack up and come to the States with my brother and I. So we moved to Raleigh, North Carolina. My dad got a job there. Basically, for me, we just moved there. I didn't know any English at all. And back in the day, there was like zero Latino kids at school or really kind of in North Carolina, period, back in the early. So it was this huge culture shock for me, and it was super difficult for me to assimilate and adapt. And then I eventually did. It took a lot of time, but I eventually kind of did adapt, and I got really big into hip hop, into music, and so I wanted to be a rapper and a music producer and stuff. So I went to full sail university in Orlando, and I got there and I was like, yeah, I'm going to be an engineer. But after doing it for a while and talking to people, I realized I don't want to go to some studio in New York and get paid, like $8 an hour to get coffee or whatever. It's just like the investment I was paying for college, it was so high. I was like, and they had this digital media program, so they were teaching 3D animation after effects, Adobe Macro Media, like all the old school stuff. And I was like, shit, that's what I want to do. I was like, I'm going to change majors. So I switched over and started learning about digital media. So my college education was really in 3D animation. So I learned Maya, I learned soft Image 3D studio max. But when I graduated and moved back to Raleigh, there were no 3D jobs. So I was like, okay, what am I going to do here? And I got a job at a video production company, and I was doing after effects, so I sort of knew after effects, but I didn't tell them that. But then that's basically how it happened. I'm probably missing a lot of things in between here, but that was kind of my journey and how I got into motion design. It was very much a kind of serendipitous. It was not planned out at all. [00:12:04] Speaker B: I definitely identify with that because that was me, too. I studied studio art, and then my plan was to be an art teacher, right? I went to grad school for Art ed. I was going to be a painter and teach kids, like, high school or middle school kids art, and then just randomly took an elective in grad school and design. It was just like, wait, what? [00:12:27] Speaker C: This is cool. [00:12:28] Speaker B: And then I did a class in after effects. And it was like, I can make my drawings move. And then it was all over. But this was, like, right around the year 2000 and the very early two thousand s. And it was. It seemed like everyone I was meeting as I got into an internship, I interned at a studio called Curious Pictures. I don't know if you guys remember that spot, but everybody was like either a graphic designer who was getting into it or somebody who studied maybe 3D animation or somebody who studied film. So we had all these different entry points. That was such a. It was a very interesting time, I think. And it sounds like, I think we all kind of came in around the same time. [00:13:08] Speaker C: Yeah, around 1998 is when I first got my first job, when I was doing after effects. But you're right, Austin. It's like, once you learn, like, oh, I can make this stuff move, then it's like, man, and I can do it on a computer at home. It's like, what? So it's exciting times. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Blue and whites. The blue and whites changed everything. Are they G three S or G something? [00:13:33] Speaker B: I remember those well, I had a G five. I remember when I had. I think that's what it was. It was a big tower. I think I came in a little after the blue and white ones. [00:13:42] Speaker C: The EMacs. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Was that what it was like, an eMac? [00:13:47] Speaker A: I don't remember that. Anyway, how did you start BN? I think also, to own a business, you have to just be okay with uncertainty and risk. So you guys, with everything you've kind of traveled through and walked through, you're not risk adverse. You're probably very risk tolerant. And the upside, even the downside is still an upside. It's still like a step on the journey, too. [00:14:21] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree with that. For me personally, I would say my ability to answer clients ask last minute now and try to come up with a solution quickly. I've been training my whole life for it by answering the door when a communist police officer opened the door and asking where your uncle is. That kind of stuff. I've been training my whole life to pivot and make something out of nothing. Right. I lie really well. [00:14:54] Speaker A: Let's put it that, yeah, you think on your feet. You just go right into that mode. Except obviously, the stakes are not life and death here. It's like, are you going to get it by four, or are you going to get it by 430? It's like, think we're okay? Wow. Yeah. But it is risky having a business. But again, the context is so different. Can you tell us a little bit about VN and what sets you guys apart, what you think makes you different and how you approach business and the kind of work you do. [00:15:32] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Aaron. So we started BM five years ago, so wE're proud to have made it through those five years. Congratulations. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a big know. [00:15:44] Speaker C: I know. And I don't take it lightly. We're very grateful to be here and to do what we do. But when we started the studio, we did a lot of thinking, competitive research, and there's a million motion design studios, and there's people who have done it or are doing it at the highest level. So we always thought, what can we do differently? And so we always went back to our roots, like, who are we as people? What's our unique point of view? And my mom actually did cultural diversity training. That was what she did for a large part of her career. And so I always was super interested in that. And I've always been a type of person where I love learning about different cultures and traveling, and I grew up with friends from all over the world. And I thought, maybe there's something there. Maybe that's a way that we can differentiate. And you look at the world and where things are going, it's becoming much, much more diverse, not just in the United States, but on a global level. And so hung and I were know, what about this concept of inclusive design? How can we kind of port it over to motion design? How can we embrace it and build on it? So we came up with this idea of inclusive motion design, and it was built on the foundation of what was happening at the time at Microsoft. So there was inclusive design. They applied it to primarily hardware, video game stuff. Also some of IDo's human centered design thinking principles. We kind of wrap those things into inclusive motion design. And when we started, no one cared. No one cared. They were like, what is that? And why is that important? And we would try to educate clients and let them know that the world is changing, the world is becoming more diverse. This is something that's important. And it didn't really take off. So we struggled big time for the first probably two years. And then George Floyd happened. And when that happened, people got really interested in working with minority owned studios and having a different perspective, a different POV. And that's when we sort of started taking off in terms of momentum and stuff like that. But in general, that's our POV and that's our mindset, is everything we do. Look at the lens of diversity and inclusion and do it on screen, but also behind the scenes. So that's really what we do. Hong, do you have anything to add? [00:18:39] Speaker D: Yeah, I would say when we formed Yen, we wanted to build this into the business itself. We did not want to say, let's make a marketing statement to differentiate right from day one. We wanted to make sure that we will practice what we preach. Right. And we actually made that part of our business, like core of our business. And I think a lot of had to do with our backgrounds. I think I mentioned my background growing up, of course, I think when I grew up in Vietnam, experiencing oppression and discrimination of a different kind, I could relate it to the American experience. Ricardo and I, when we came together, we compared notes trading war stories. We would say, notice how oftentimes we were the only minority people in the room in post production. So there was something there. So that when we honed into this concept, that was like a big part of what we wanted to do. And there's factor at the time and until now, for the industry does not look that great. [00:19:49] Speaker B: I wanted to ask one thing. Yeah, well, real quick, just before I forget, because Hong, being Vietnamese, and then Ricardo, when you had mentioned that your father had been in the Vietnam War, too, and just how you guys came together, is that a point that you guys had connected on? And to me, that was just. There was something interesting there and just wanted to dig into that a little, if that's okay. [00:20:14] Speaker C: Yeah, man. I'll say this. When Hung and I started working together, we just clicked. We just became fast friends. And then we started learning about each other's backgrounds and stuff. And that really kind of was like, that's weird. That's an odd coincidence. There's definitely Something here. So I would say, absolutely, man. It's just, again, I'll say serendipity, I guess, the second time on this podcast. But these things happen. I think they happen for a reason. And that bond and that friendship that we had, that's going on like, I don't know, 15 years almost is real. [00:20:58] Speaker D: Austin, I would add, we complement each other in this way too. Right? I came from a world where Western media was kept out completely for years. I did not watch one Disney movie until I turned twelve. And it was behind closed doors and it shut their windows in a government building. But it was weird. I watched the very first Disney movie in a government building because only the government would have access to all the stuff that accomplished from people, and they all shut the windows, all that stuff. So I would consider myself coming into our industry with an outsider's point of view. Because I just did not know anything about popular culture in America, period. Like, I would go and listen to music from 19 inch nails and whatever, old school music, just to brush myself up on American culture. While Ricardo entrenched in the hip hop community in North Carolina, he got the insider track, but from the minority point of view. So that's kind of how we see our POVs kind of jive well together. Yeah. [00:22:07] Speaker C: And also, I went back to live in Ecuador as an adult. In the early two thousand s. I went back and I was still doing motion design, but living in Ecuador. So even though I grew up here, I'd always gone back to Ecuador, and then I lived there for three or four years. I got married there. So I've always had an international perspective. That's just me. If you know anyone who knows me well, I have friends from all over the world, and I love it. So that's another thing is just like, being curious, being open, being inclusive, that's just who we are. [00:22:44] Speaker A: I mean, the world is getting smaller. When I started the studio, we worked with maybe one or two people in the UK, and usually they came over here and it was. Now it's like, pew, pew, pew. Like everywhere, all over the. Like. I hear people talking different languages. You do a quick Google translate, the tools are there, the resources are there, the world got smaller. How you pay people is super easy now, unless they're in a communist country. But there's that too. Sometimes it's a little challenging, just from a technical logistics standpoint, but there are ways to figure it out. And we've been more open to it here. [00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah, globalization, it's expanding and evolving rapidly, especially with the pandemic. We work with talent all over the world, and that was also one of our key tenets or beliefs early on, is like, good talent exists everywhere and they have a different international point of view. And if brands are more global, I think any big brand now, they have to be extremely global, right? So to have a global audience, but not have a global team, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And something that I wanted to bring up, too, Aaron, was know when I was in school, at full sale, I think there were two women in our class, if that. I think there was two or. Yeah, two. And so that's an issue. It's been a boys club in motion design forever and ever. Now I see it changing, but that's something that we are not okay with. It's not cool. That has to change, and we are working towards that. So I just wanted to get your perspective too, Aaron, because I know you've been through a lot too. [00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting, it's hard to compare with your all struggle. I grew up on Long island in a pretty privileged household and then went off to rit in Rochester, New York, where my parents paid for know, when I got into the world, it's like I didn't see it because all I cared about was the work. I'm not kidding. I was just this chubby blonde girl that just worked. I loved the work, but there were only a couple of other women around me that were on the creative side. I never had a female creative director or creative lead in any capacity. It just wasn't. And it's not just that it wasn't on our side of the busiNess. Like, when you looked at the ad agencies and the clients hiring us, it was still rare to see a female lead, creative lead. And I could get into all the whys, but it doesn't really matter. I was just like one of very few women at Digital Kitchen, I think, in the industry at that time. Achieving and then moving through. I don't know what about me made me? It's interesting. It wasn't this idea that I wanted to own a company that made me start the business. It's also nice because I own it. It's all mine. I get to decide. I'm the decider, and it's nice to not have partners, no offense, because for me, I found it. There's a niceness in a matriarchy. And being a woman, I really do consider what people think, and I really find people that compliment me personality wise and skill set wise. And things are just very thoughtful how they're done. And if there's a risk that's going to be made, I know it's kind of my neck and my house on the line, and I feel good that it's not. Well, my partner is apprehensious and he's got a wife that's pretty high maintenance and how's she going to feel when I want to spend 100 grand on a build out or something like that? Because that's their money, too. So I like knowing that it's all my neck on the line every day. [00:27:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I bet that's awesome. I bet it can get also lonely sometimes. I mean, it's pros and cons always, right? Like with Hung and I will have disagreements for sure, but we always work through them and get over them. But on our end, it would be scary for me to have to make all of the decisions for us. It's great to be able to bounce back and forth, but I think it's just dependent on the person too, because it would be awesome just to make a decision and do it and not have to think about it. And so many different perspectives involved too. [00:27:45] Speaker B: Yeah, see, I get overwhelmed. For me, being the non larger studio owner in this mix, I admire and respect, because to me, I always the idea of the responsibility of like, oh, wow, I got all these, like, when I talk to Aaron and I think know you got people's, their livelihoods and feeling responsible for that, that to me always feels pretty overwhelming. [00:28:13] Speaker A: And you have to take risks, you have to constantly, are we going to pitch? That pitch is going to be expensive. Do we have the money for that? Should we not spend it on that? Should we go in with a little mini treatment? There's not just your jobs on the line. [00:28:31] Speaker D: There's like a lot of people, lots of considerable. I love that saying, scam money, don't make no money. Sometimes. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:41] Speaker C: I was always telling me that I. [00:28:43] Speaker D: Want to bring it back, don't make money. [00:28:48] Speaker A: Is there enough diversity? [00:28:50] Speaker B: I was just going to bring it back to the question about just female representation, just from the educator point of view. [00:28:59] Speaker D: Right. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Because I have coming in early 2000s. Right. Definitely the boys club, seeing a lot of female producers, not as much female motion design talent, and then teaching at SCAD for ten years and watching over time as the percent where maybe it was 50 50, like male female, and then over time, it was really more female than male students. Right. And now I'm over here in Washington, Western Washington University. I'm in a more generalist design program. I'm bringing a lot of the motion classes there. I'm helping there. But we're way, like right now, we switched a new BFA cohort. There's like 80, 90% female students. And it's not everybody's necessarily going straight to motion design, but just design the representation there is very female. I guess that bigger question, and it's one of those things I try to advocate for female students, is how do you negotiate for yourself in a culture that is kind of male dominated? And hearing from the career advisors for years too, that it's like a male student gets an offer, they negotiate, female student gets an offer, they take it without the negotiation. How to address that? [00:30:27] Speaker D: Yeah, I find it interesting that I think the trend has been going on for quite some time that the students in school are more female, but that doesn't necessarily translate into real world. OncE they graduated. Because I think the way we work is very demanding. The schedule is very demanding. I think if you are a female and you are career obsessed, you have to forego a lot of family planning, other things that not all the women are willing to do for careers. And even the culture of work is more like been tailored and structured for the dudes, for the broke culture all this time. So I think it's going to take quite some time before all that would also, you know, Aaron, you know this, right? If you don't put in the work, you're not going to make great mean. We can say, try to chill, but if you don't put in the work, you don't put in the hours, you can't do that. You don't make anything good. [00:31:32] Speaker A: Yeah, there definitely are considerations for women that men don't have. Me, I had a baby at 40, which is, I would not ideal. Which is not ideal from a physical, a mental, I think all the time, like, oh, my God, if I see my baby at 40, when she's 40, I'm going to be 80. God, that gives me pause. So I think there's something about just, and also that's very late to be having kids just from like a biological standpoint and now having kid understanding just what that means as a real conversation starter. It's like, I have this company and it's so important. There are so many lives and it's still so important. But what happened is this other mountain got put on top of it. So all the energy that I had to put into my studio, I was still putting into my studio. But now I'm also putting all this energy and attention and focus into my daughter and my family, making sure that's, like a healthy place. And so it is not shocking that once women see what it's like, especially at the entry point, like the price point of entry, which is, I would say, lower than most other fields. I mean, it has the potential to make you a ton of money, but a very nice living. But in the beginning days, in the first five or six years, you're getting going. And so if you're coming out and your partner is in more of like an accenture type thing, and they're going to start out making 80, 90 grand a year, obviously, you're the one that's going to be home. And there's just also just the dynamics, the physicality of what's going on with your body when you choose to have children. And then technology moves so fast. It's really scary to get back in. So if you take a year break, which is that enough? I don't. Our. How we handle being out after having a baby in the US is very unhealthy. Companies like us are not subsidized by the government. So I would love to be able to give somebody like a year or six, but nobody's given me anything. So that's literally a salary that I'm all of a sudden paying. And as a small business, that's not the greatest. So it would be amazing if the government did do something to support families. [00:34:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:12] Speaker A: And certainly that's a big. [00:34:14] Speaker D: Yeah, I was just going to say. [00:34:15] Speaker A: That'S a big human rights. Yeah, it's a human rights issue. Really? [00:34:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:34:21] Speaker C: You've got other countries, like Ecuador, that pays for, I think it's a year maternity. These are. These are small third world countries and they're doing these things. So why the hell isn't that happening in the United States? But this is like a bigger topic for us, is one thing that we always tell people is diversity, and inclusion is so much more than ethnicity and even gender. It's about age, it's about ability, it's about just background sexual preference. There's so many things that we include in this idea of disability, of inclusion and diversity. And, like, for example, the world's largest minority group is people with disabilities. Right. So there's 1 billion people on Earth today with some form of disability, and that's 15% of the population. So that's something that we're also advocating for and that we're pushing hard to give people with disabilities a voice, advocate for them, and just in general, push for more diversity all around. And that goes for so many different population groups. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah. 100 million%. There's so many kinds of disabled. Like, that definition is so vast. [00:35:52] Speaker B: Well, and also, it seems like I know with you all the pillars of inclusive motion design. Right. Is it like accessibility? I don't want to say that's the solution, but I guess the word to describe that solution, I don't know. What are some of the potential solutions for representation? [00:36:17] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a super deep topic. And we don't have all answers. Like, Hung and I, we never pretend to have all the answers. We say up front, like, this is a very new thing, even on the corporate side, like, just Dei initiatives in general are like five to seven, maybe ten years old. So we're all trying to figure it out as we do this. Right. But one of the main things is just representation in general. Right. It's just being able to see yourself in someone else and say, I can do that. [00:36:49] Speaker D: Right. [00:36:50] Speaker C: Societal norms traditionally have told us these are the type of people who do X, Y, and Z. And if you're not one of those types of people, forget about it. You're not going to make it to do X, Y, or Z. And so that's why I've been so excited to see a lot more representation in movies and in TV. [00:37:13] Speaker D: Right? [00:37:14] Speaker C: So now you can go to the movies, you can see a female lead, you can see a black lead, you can see an all black cast, and the movie still does extremely well on a global scale. And that's something that I always talk about is like, I think it was with Independence Day with Will Smith, when none of the movie heads wanted to hire or put Will Smith in the lead role because they thought it wouldn't play for international audiences, right? So there's some undertones of racism happening there. But now the director and the studio fought really hard for Will Smith, and it turned out to be this huge blockbuster. Right? And so now you've got movies like Black Panther, and there's too many to name now that have proven that people from diverse backgrounds can lead movies and can be behind huge blockbusters, global blockbusters. Right. The world is changing. The mentality is changing. The view on a global level has changed. And that's really interesting. It's really powerful, and it's Something that has inspired hung. And I just. In general, it's like it's not the 1940s or 50s or 60s anymore. So we all have to adapt to that. [00:38:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Just to dig deeper into that first pillar of the inclusive motion design principles, representation, even just for me, reading that and thinking about it, that idea of representation on screen and behind the screens and then bringing it into motion design. And it's easy. It's easy to take it for granted from my point of privilege. [00:39:01] Speaker D: Right. [00:39:01] Speaker B: But to really think about, okay, like showing those diverse people on screen, even if it is graphics, right? Illustrations. [00:39:13] Speaker C: Yeah. Because, Austin, if you grow up outside the, like, if. If you go Ecuador, Vietnam, India, Africa, like any. Any country outside the US, you look at the advertisements, you look at the movie stars, celebrities. They're either white or they're the lightest skinned people from that particular country, right? And so you grew up thinking that that's better than you. That that's. Right. That's what you want to be. And so those are some of the social activism components of what we're doing at BN. And that's why representation is so important. So that's all changing. It hasn't changed fully, but just that representation, it seems so trivial almost, if you're not really thinking about it. But psychologically, if you're constantly exposed to that day in, day out, that's what you believe growing up. You believe that you can't do that because that person doesn't look like me. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Or just the idea of beauty. [00:40:17] Speaker D: Yeah, I think we cannot also take what we hear for granted. Like you say, representation on screen, come on, we have plenty of that nowadays. I mean, there's a Forbes article this year, like early this year, saying that representation on screen, when they analyze the commercials, actually dropped compared to a couple of years ago. So you might see more, but that doesn't mean that there is more. It's just that it's a push and pull constantly. And would that representation on screen be concentrated in one sector? In this case, live action is what we see the most. But you talk about what we do in motion design, that's necessarily the case. And if it does happen, it happens on what I call, like, a checkbox level. Let's put some people of color on the screen. We're good. We're done. But diversity is so much more than that. And you have to be more nuanced. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's also, like, body diversity. Whenever we're doing illustrations, I'm like, thicken that girl up. Put a mole over there. I'm just like, let's just redefine beauty into the personal style. It's not necessarily about body type, it's about what they are exuding. Right. So to play around with different body types, not just ethnicity and all that. [00:41:49] Speaker C: Well, it's interesting. [00:41:50] Speaker B: I'll say, and I'm not sure we could always bleep it out, but I just finished working on. Right. So I don't know if I'm supposed to say it. [00:42:01] Speaker A: We're definitely worked on it. We are. Definitely. [00:42:03] Speaker B: Okay, all right, I'll start this. I'll say I've been working with. I just did some tech company work for a tech company. For a tech company. No, but what's really interesting is that the illustration library that we were given to work with and a lot of the rounds of revisions before I was even given the green light to animate was that they wanted more diversity. They wanted to show somebody in a wheelchair, and they wanted to show somebody with a different body type, and they wanted to make sure that there was. So it seems like at least at some level internally, they're conscious of and they're thinking about it, and they're mandating it. [00:42:45] Speaker C: I thought that was cool. [00:42:46] Speaker A: You know what my favorite thing recently was, is I went to buy some tank tops at Old Navy online, and you could do a search, but then you could look at the garments in the search, like, all the icons in a small, in a large, in a double, extra large, and the model changed, and you actually saw what it was going to fucking look like on you, not some tarantula science human. And I was like, exactly. And it really impresses me. A lot of these brands have not only embraced. I don't know, it just makes you feel human again. It made me feel human. I was like, oh. I felt like very seen and very human. Like I mattered when I saw that. [00:43:33] Speaker C: Yeah, like, you matter. Like you're seen, and that's so important. Aaron. I also go back to social media, right? And say, okay, social media is good and bad, of course, but I think it's changed. Especially Generation Z. Like, their view. They reject anything that's, like, polished and overly corporate. They love to see and hear from people who have a variety of different. Just looks in general, from different countries, from different backgrounds. So people want that now. Whereas before the, it was all about perfection, and it's all about these super skinny models who look perfect. People don't want that anymore. My kids. My daughter is 13, right? She hates that kind of stuff. It's got to be authentic. It's got to be real. It's got to be just people being who they are. I believe that. Seriously, that that has been a huge cultural paradigm shift. [00:44:39] Speaker B: I have a 13 year old daughter, too, so it's interesting too. She likes to go to the thrift store. She wants to buy clothes from the thrift store. I'm like, really? [00:44:47] Speaker C: That's cool. [00:44:49] Speaker B: And it might just be where we are in this little kind of blue enclave here in Bellingham, Washington. But they're in middle school. They have a huge LGBTQ plus club, right? And it's supported, and it's really active. It's encouraging for me. But then I just went back in my mind, and I'm like, okay, about that tech company that I did some ads for, and I'm like, what level is this? How do I discern what's, like, is this just mandated and they're doing it because they have to, or is this performative, or is this authentic? [00:45:27] Speaker A: And does it matter? Does it matter? Is my question. As long as it's happening, I think commerce is always going to be the leading edge of why something happens. Like, there's a shift happening, right. The point is, if it matters to people, it's going to matter to the companies. And I think Hung made a point earlier about media being still more white, heterobiased. And if you look at our country, that's not shocking. Why we're seeing what we're supposed to see because of the channels we look at, because of the networks we're on, because of the platforms we're on, because of the bubble we share all our information in and how ads are targeted towards. But like, somebody in Alabama ain't seeing that. They're seeing what they're needing to see to buy the thing that they're needing to buy. But I do think that companies like the big tech companies that have a big global footprint in so many, like in every you, if you think of a company like, I'll use Apple, for example, they own the devices, they own the things that you look at the things on. They own the content now that's being shown on them with their streaming network. So they're going to own the whole network of what you look at and how you receive it. So what I'm saying is they have an obligation, as far as I'm concerned, to make sure for whatever it could be a noble reason or a not noble reason to make sure people are represented because they're in hands all around the world. They're creating content for people all around the, it's, I think it's just really, they have a moral obligation to lead in that way. And when you have giant media companies like Fox News and things like that just going the absolute other way, it just makes me insane. It just makes me insane because it makes me proud to hold an apple product and to have made a film for them a while back because it's what I believe, and I want to see them reflecting the beliefs I have. So whether they have all their executives and everything with those personal beliefs, I don't really care so long as that they're moving in the right direction. And the right direction is seeing different people on TV, for sure. [00:47:59] Speaker D: I think to bring it home a bit, right. The consumers are changing, so the people who make the products are also changing to adapt. I think the question is, is the motion design industry changing fast enough to keep up with and to understand the nuances and the cultural differences to appeal to the new audience? [00:48:24] Speaker A: Yes. Well, the answer is probably no, right? How could it? [00:48:32] Speaker D: Because it's got such, I would say that a lot of times people think of like, oh, this is an American problem. It's probably because too many studios are run by Caucasian Americans, so therefore they cannot change. But I think you can look at this as a global problem. A lot of designers and companies around the world, they want to work with American companies like Coca Cola, Pepsi, you name it. Right? So they have adapted to appeal to certain things that they think the American customers or companies wanted them to do. So they cater to that taste and they changed their view the way they do things to appeal to that. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Cater to it. Yeah. So what does success look like? How do we evolve? [00:49:31] Speaker D: Yeah, I would say it's kind of like for all of us to kind of understand our audience better. I think we all can gain better understanding of what our customers really want besides just Googling, like, oh, what do people in general want? You Google it. Right. And the best way to learn that is basically to expand your network, to bring in people with really different perspectives than your own to be part of the process. That's what we try to advocate for, is the idea of design with not for. [00:50:09] Speaker A: I think that makes a lot of sense. Design with not for. Let's talk about that. [00:50:14] Speaker D: Ricardo, you want to take this one? Yeah. [00:50:17] Speaker C: I mean, basically it just means that if you're designing or creating, it's for anything, right. If you're designing, you're creating, you're filming, you're shooting, you're producing any kind of content you're creating. If it's for a specific audience, you want to make sure that you have someone from that audience represented on your team. And so that's why when we talk about inclusive motion design, it's really important to talk about representation on screen, but also behind the scenes. Because without an inclusive and diverse team behind the scenes, you can't create content on screen for that audience. [00:50:53] Speaker D: Right. [00:50:53] Speaker C: So how do you do that, though? So obviously, we've talked about the industry is not very diverse, but what we have started doing with the design, with not for mentality, is bringing on consultants. So it's impossible without lived experience to create something that is authentic to a particular audience. You have to have someone from that audience on the team. So you can just hire a consultant. And we've done that. We do a lot of international work. So we do a lot of stuff for the Indian market, for example. And so instead of just googling stuff or calling a friend and asking them, we hire consultants from India from that market, and we make sure that the ideas, the creative, the concept, et cetera, is true, is authentic. It is up to date. It's not stereotypical, it's like real deal stuff. So in general, design with not for is something that we want everyone to take away from this podcast that's listening. It's super, super important. And that's why it's so important that we as studio owners and I would say influencers, Austin, like in our industry, that's why we have to talk about these things and think of ourselves as a bridge studio or someone who can unearth opportunities and spread them throughout the industry and give others opportunities. So instead of thinking about what is talent going to do for us, we think about what are we going to be able to do for talent and act as a bridge to other opportunities. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Curious. When you hire a consultant for a project like that, so would that be like a motion designer or what is that consultant role? Or does that depend? [00:52:50] Speaker D: Yeah, I can take that one. I think that one. The role would depend. So if the stars align, then it would be a beautiful mixture. If you can bring on a designer who knows the culture really well and couldn't be part of the process. And we had done that in the past and it worked out beautifully because you can actually do many things at once. Right? You are giving that person opportunity to work on something really amazing at the same time, while giving you something even more amazing in return is a cultural authenticity. So it could work out like that. But if you cannot find such opportunities, then you can bring on a cultural consultant. We had worked on a project where we had to illustrate a non binary character, and we don't have someone like that on staff. And it's not easy for you to go out and say, I'm looking for a non binary designer. That's not great either. So in that case, just luckily enough that we knew someone who is a teacher and they were the right person to consult on that and they were on board with us to be a consultant and just review our work, give us tips, do Zoom calls with us, all those things just to talk it out. I think this formula is not new, right. Pixar, all the big studios have been. [00:54:23] Speaker A: Doing to make movies. Absolutely. [00:54:27] Speaker B: That idea for me, I mean, as a cultural consultant, right, whatever that culture happens to be, finding somebody who can speak to it and inform and bring the authenticity on. Right on. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Well, like, how naive to think that somebody wouldn't have that, that you're going to just create this project for this audience, have no experience with it. I mean, when you watch movies from the 80s, you're just like, oh, my God, watching like a John Hughes movie now, you're just like, was somebody just not there that had any sense of what. So I think at least here, when we might not go as deep, making it a part, I would say that it's not necessarily a part of our ethos, but we wouldn't make such a misstep as to not check ourselves to make sure that we would definitely make sure somebody's eyes were on it. That could let us know, what are we doing here? Before we start, can you talk to us about what your experience is like, or if there's anything we should understand about how somebody would communicate? You know what? If I'm thinking about specific things, I feel like the older we get, or at least for me, the older I get, the more I know that. I don't know. Like, you come in, you think you know everything when you're a teenager, and then you get into college and you're like, oh, this is interesting. I'm learning, I'm absorbing. And then you get good at your profession, so you know, or at least you know how to know. I know how to get that tutorial. I know what they're thinking and I know. And then you kind of hit this other layer of like, oh, forget it. I had no idea. And I'm never going to presume ever again. The smartest people I know are just questioners, people that question and ask questions because that's how you get somewhere. [00:56:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say, too, with what you were just saying, Ricardo, that maybe it's this. [00:56:43] Speaker C: I like to think it's hopeful. [00:56:44] Speaker B: I hope it's not like a naive hope, but this idea of a rejection of these different kinds of myths, right, whether it's a beauty myth or the myths, and that media really pushes out to a culture, to a populace, and that there is a craving for more authentic stories or more that can. Even if they're diverse, they're personal. But the personal speaks to everybody, right? That personal experience. [00:57:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that's so true, Austin. We're all humans, and we're way more alike than we are different. That's the key, core thing to keep in mind here. They're human stories. No matter what, they are still human stories. And I think people are a lot more open and welcoming to those stories now than maybe 30, 40, 50 years ago. And in fact, they're very much in demand. People want those stories. You see that with the type of media that's coming out and being released these days and what's popular on Netflix and TikTok and YouTube, it's happening. [00:58:06] Speaker A: Yeah. A million, billion. [00:58:09] Speaker B: I guess I have a selfish question. So as an educator, educating, working with designers and motion design students and just asking, like, all right, so what can I do? How can I help advance a more inclusive future for design students? [00:58:33] Speaker D: Yeah, I wouldn't presume to tell you what to do. We can only kind of draw from our personal experience. Ricardo and I have been teaching inclusive motion design to a hyper island in Stockholm the past couple of years. And, Erin, we invited you to the first one. We, you know, we have seen the changes that the students have told us afterwards, like, you know what? We cannot look at the work the same way before anymore. And I think that's where it starts, right? People coming out of school knowing that the world they want to create aligns with their ideals, not what they've been taught or seen in media now or what they want to see coming out later. So I think it starts with that. Just kind of like, have students understand the importance of this as a social impact that they can make themselves coming out of school and partake in our industry will make a huge impact ten years down the road. And I think that it's kind of, in a way, I would say it's common sense. Right? We just kind of bring people back to common sense. Like, look, you look like this, I look like this. Why do we do things like this? That doesn't make sense. Right. And in the age of TikTok and Instagram, I think that the expectations of the old days are gone. Aaron, you remember when we worked with broadcast designs and everything had to be this level of quality and polished voiceover has to be sound like this, or isn't that good? I think we can kind of see that, affect the past, and we have to move past that. Yeah. And I think we have a methodology that we have to help people see things kind of differently. Ricardo and I have come up with a way. We hold workshops about this, about Jews to motion design, how tactical. You can do it on every step of the way. And we don't think of diversity in the way that, like Ricardo said, ethnicity, that's not the goal here. That's not the only goal. I think that for the United States, we definitely have a lack of African American and Latinx talents, period. And if you lack those perspectives, then your work cannot be as diverse. Right. So it's just a matter of, like, it's almost like math. If you increase more diverse perspectives, the work would be more interesting and creative, because then you're offering the world new things that haven't been seen before from people who have different views. So by doing that, I think if we can encourage more people from minority groups joining the industry, we see a big shift. And we also think about inclusion as every step of the production process before we at the Discovery call, when we talk internally, it should be weaved into the production process every step of the way. And not just like, wait till before we deliver to the client, say, hey, did we check all these boxes? Right? That would be too late. [01:01:49] Speaker C: Yeah. One way we look at it too often is like, there is a definite monoculture in design today, and we want to see that change. So what can we do to make that change? Many of the things that we do revolve around mentorship. It's bringing on young, diverse designers, whether it's informal, or whether it's a formal mentee mentor relationship, or it's like an apprenticeship or even an internship, is seeking out those diverse talents, bringing them on and then teaching them the ropes, showing them the ropes and going out of your way, like actually putting in a lot more work as a studio owner to support them, to make them feel comfortable, to let them know that they are welcome, that their voice matters, that they can contribute not only to their industry or to the design, but society as a whole, right? So taking time out to work with them is a huge part of what we do. And then another thing is double the line. So double the line is an initiative that was started by AICP and it was intended to be for live action, right? So basically for them, it's like, hey, if there's a DP, then you should try to double your line item for that DP and bring on a diverse talent so that they can shadow that senior DP. And so we've kind of taken that and we've adapted it to motion design. So, for example, for like, cell animators, right, or 3D animators. Aaron, you know that there's like an elite bunch of people, and that elite bunch is unfortunately not very diverse. So we take a junior diverse designer and double the line, pair them with a senior talent, and what happens is something that's amazing, that junior talent, they get that experience of shadowing someone, right? They get that confidence of being on a big job, but most importantly, they get that piece on their reel. And that's the problem. There's a concrete wall into our industry. You can't get work without having the work. So that's why we look at ourselves as a bridge studio. This is a bridge to other opportunities. So you bring someone on, you teach them the ropes, but it takes a certain mentality and commitment. It's hard. It's really hard. Sometimes we get mentorship is. Yeah. And we get clients to pay for it. And we've been more successful now saying, hey, a double the line cell animator will cost you, I don't know, 3000, 4000 more for whatever short period of time. And they say, oh yeah, I see value in that. Sometimes they don't or they just can't and then we'll absorb the cost. So I think it just takes an extraordinary amount of commitment and just sort of focus to think about like there's a monoculture in design, how are we going to change it? And it's tactical hard ass work that most people don't want to do. [01:05:02] Speaker A: Well, it takes time. [01:05:04] Speaker B: From an educator's perspective, would that look something like, if I have a diverse student actively trying to connect them with a diverse mentor? Is that the way? [01:05:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:05:21] Speaker D: I would say also we kind of like redefine what allyship means in the diversity and inclusion space. Right? Because I think a lot of times when you say it, the word allyship, it tends to mean, oh, you know what, there's a really good white designer who is going to help this minority junior to work, right? But I think when you redefine allyship as an even handshake, anybody can be an ally. If you're a woman, you can ally a white male. If you're a white male, you can ally like, because you gain something in return, no matter what. You gain a new perspective, you gain anything. But if you are teaching in schoOl, for example, Austin, like, for example, you teach typography. If you look at typography, you would teach them the masters, right? The Swiss and all that. And what if you just say, hey, you know what, there are a lot of amazing Thai palm trees out there by Latinx, by other minorities, Thai palm trees you can look at. And what we're not doing, we should not forcing it on them, but we make them aware that there is also a lack of diversity in the type design world. And then there are many options out there that you can just start exploring and kind of like looking at that. Imagine you buy a typeface from a Latinx type foundry. That makes a big difference. Imagine if a brand would choose to work with a Thai foundry like that from the get go and make that a thing for a big giant enterprise. What would that do? What would the impact be? [01:07:14] Speaker A: That is a big deal because access is everything, right? Yeah. Like when I hear you guys talk about it, the thing that's kind of challenging is that now with the way things are set up, with how schedules are, it is hard to do that. It is hard to invest in something that's going to inherently slow down the process, maybe, and we have to acknowledge that. But at the same time, there's also, like, when you do that every once in a while, you get somebody that knocks it out of the park who just absorbs and becomes just like an integral member of your team. Without question. [01:07:55] Speaker C: We've had that many times. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And even for the people that don't, like, you say, it's like, well, they've had this amazing experience and then can move on and have that on their resume and have a character reference and have all of that stuff that they wouldn't have necessarily had before. So it's a big deal. It also just sets a vibe in your studio that's different. [01:08:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:08:20] Speaker C: Another important giving someone a shot. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Okay, go on. [01:08:23] Speaker C: No, I was just saying it's about giving someone a shot. It's about going out on a limb, taking a risk where our industry is very risk averse and to make a change, you have to do that. I think tHat's one of the biggest things that we can do in general in our industry. [01:08:41] Speaker A: It's so interesting. Whenever we bring somebody new in, like a new freelancer or any kind of new, we always have somebody that we're booking that is also tried and true or an internal person. So that just in case something happens with this person, whether it's a character thing or a quality thing or whatever, that we're covered just in case. So we tend to have one or two of those things going on at a time so that it's not like we're stacked up with like, oh, my God, if all these people don't work out, it's like, okay, if one person doesn't work out, we're going to be okay. If another person doesn't work out, we're going to be okay. It's not like the whole ship is sinking. So there's a way to kind of make this part of your system without necessarily getting into too much risk. How I would have and am adopting some of this thinking, putting it into practice. And in that way, it is a practice. It's not always going to go well, and it's not always going to go poorly either. It's a practice. You kind of got to get used to doing that. And the people at the office have to get used to doing it, too. So it will be work, but it's worthy. [01:09:56] Speaker D: We consider it like a shared responsibility. For the student, learn. It's like a thing for us. Everyone cares about the same objective, right, to help whoever comes through the door to achieve the goal. So in a way, it will be less taxing if you don't put all that on one person. But divided between the producer and the art director, you in charge of this one tidbit. And then at the end, they would get accumulative knowledge. [01:10:25] Speaker A: Yeah, kind of. [01:10:27] Speaker B: Wait, I'm still processing the bridge studio idea and thinking about it as, like, a bridge educator. Right. And how I. Brilliant, right. Linking people up, which is. I mean, it's something I think I've done. There's been organically doing it, but to be just a little more conscious and intentional. I don't know if that's not. Risk averse isn't the word, but I guess it's that kind of worrying about, like, oh, is there an etiquette? Or am I crossing boundaries? Which I guess brings us that next idea. Or next question is like, what should we not do? [01:11:08] Speaker A: That's a great question. [01:11:09] Speaker B: In trying to advance the inclusivity. [01:11:12] Speaker D: Yeah, I totally hear you because obviously I hear it from your. I'm trying to step in your shoes right now, Austin. Right. I'm like, if I'm a white male and a teacher, I don't want to say shit. That would be misinterpreted. And then red is like, oh, am I doing this because I'm the minority in the room and you giving me special care, special attention. Right. To me, first, it has to come from a good place to us. We got this question in the past. How is what you're doing different than tokenism? Right. If we just say, oh, we bring on diverse talents and stuff like that? Well, my answer is a question, is it tokenism when our entire company is completely diverse? Right. I think tokenism is when you have just one type, one perspective, and you try to bring someone just because. So, in a way, I think what we do is we have to balance. We have a delicate balance to play with here, right? At the same time, we have to be honest with ourselves that no good work can be done unless you get your hands dirty. You have to forego some political correctness, and you have to come from a good place that you have a good intention to help this person and to help the industry. And it's not a one time thing because we got a job that has to do with some Hispanic market thing that we bring on that person for. [01:12:49] Speaker C: Right. [01:12:49] Speaker D: It should be a consistent effort, and there's a longevity to this program, this commitment to it. [01:12:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's so interesting. I always want to ask you guys, when you listen to this podcast back, and maybe I am asking and just kind of dancing around that if I say anything that's absolutely insane, please let me know and I'll cut it out, because I am so worried about cancel culture. But when I talk about things, I talk very openly, and I'm okay making mistakes, but I'm okay on behalf of me making mistakes. I don't want to make a misstep on other people. And when you have a platform and are more visible, the last thing I would ever want to do is offend anybody. And I'm very happy to be educated. But with cancel culture being so intense right now, I get very scared about talking about this. Even in our season one, I said to Austin, I said, until we have some real information about diversity, inclusion, equity, even as a woman, I don't feel comfortable talking about it. It's not my area of expertise. And while I feel like we're doing some work here, it's different. It's just different. So I get very worried about opening my mouth sometimes and talking about things because I worry that even though my intentions might be good sometimes, it doesn't matter what your intentions are. People are just going to go for the throat. [01:14:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with that. Council culture is sort of something that has evolved and mushroomed, and it's this big thing. But I believe that if you're the type of person that is self aware, who's open and honest and has an attitude of, like, I want to be educated, I'm thinking about this, and I don't know, then I think it's much easier for someone to interpret it in a way that's not toxic and that's not abrasive. I think it's all about how you ask questions and how you say things. If you come at people with this sort of aggressive nature and you're saying these things that you hold to be true, then I think people can definitely. That can backfire. But I think as long as it comes from a good place and a point of curiosity and wanting to know and wanting to understand, because we don't know everything about everyone, I think that's what's most important. And then I'll also say, in general, we got to have these conversations. We just got to. And we got to get people from diverse backgrounds. That means just anyone together to talk. That's something that this country in general has avoided, and it's uncomfortable. And it can be uncomfortable, but to work through things, you got to sometimes be open to being uncomfortable and to making mistakes. [01:15:57] Speaker D: Yeah. Austin, to go back to your question, right. What should we not do? I think the worst thing we should not do is nothing. Right. You think about it. If we just stand still and say, that problem is too big, it's too sensitive, let's not touch that. That's the worst thing you can do. By choosing not to partake or to have a conversation about it or even ask questions in the first place, that's the worst thing you can do. [01:16:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with that, man. 100%. [01:16:27] Speaker B: Right. [01:16:27] Speaker A: So crazy. Double the line. I don't know how I haven't heard about that, but what a great way to handle it, Aaron, honestly, because I have tons of clients that would be super on board with that. Super fucking heartbeat. [01:16:47] Speaker C: A lot of people haven't heard about it, and I think it's one of these things where someone came up with this idea and it sounded great and it never super took off, because I would say more people have not heard about it. And we heard about it through a client who said, hey, we want you to do this. We were like, oh, shit, this is genius. And I think it's just one of those things. There's so many things that came up and they came and they went. People have these great intentions, but again, who is doing that? It can be difficult. Like you said, it may slow down the work a little bit. It may be a little bit more expensive, but it's actually super simple. [01:17:28] Speaker A: It doesn't have to ask our clients, like, hey, is this a double the line job? Can we do that for you? Like, right when we're bidding a job, just have it be a question that we ask, like, hey, this is something we are very excited about doing, if you're up for it. I get it. I get also, if costs are an issue, we have other jobs we're already doing it on, but I think they would be. [01:17:52] Speaker D: The other way you can think about that is that it's a very flexible way to do social impact, because double the line can be for the entire job or can be for cell animation or for just compositing or just for design. You can apply it in many phases of production, or only one phase of production depends on the risk tolerance of the job, the budget, the schedule. So many factors weren't just to say. [01:18:22] Speaker A: Like, hey, we'd like to try doubling the line on with a 2D animator and a 3D animator and an editor on your job. Is that something you're cool with just to say, like, this is what we have available. Are you interested? I love this. [01:18:37] Speaker D: Isn't it cool? [01:18:38] Speaker C: We get so excited, Aaron. This is one of the things that we're so excited about. [01:18:42] Speaker D: Right. [01:18:42] Speaker C: And it's so easy. And the other thing is this double the liner gets to be on this huge job, see everything behind the. Right. Like, I don't know about you guys, but we do a lot of slack. We do a lot of client calls. So that person's on those client calls. They get introduced to the client, the client sees this person. They love it, right. But it's just like building that confidence, building that experience level, and now with everything being zoom, it's so easy to do. And my question to anyone listening is, why not do it seriously? And it's also, from a studio perspective, it helps you build your pipeline. [01:19:20] Speaker D: Right? [01:19:21] Speaker C: So there's so many wins. It's, like, ridiculous that everyone's not doing it. So please do it. [01:19:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:29] Speaker D: And, Austin, from an educator standpoint, that is something you can offer studios. You can say, I have my students, and I'm not saying ethnicity is a case here. Right. You're not going to tell them, I have a minority student or whatever. I have a student who's really good, who would be great to shadow part of your production and gain that knowledge, go into an industry. Right on graduation. [01:19:57] Speaker B: Right on. [01:19:58] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:19:58] Speaker B: That's kind of what's been going on in my head as I'm listening is I'm like, okay, how can we feed students in this, in some kind of apprenticeship mentorship model? I mean, I know there's the official internship channel, but is there something else that it doesn't have to be an official internship? Can they just kind of shadow a production? [01:20:20] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:20:21] Speaker A: Well, what's great about double the line is they're getting paid. Everybody's getting paiD. It's coming from commerce. Essentially. The economy is supporting the initiative and not the burden on that. Again, the burden shouldn't just be on the studio owner to make huge social impact. It's got to be shared throughout the process. So, like, okay, yeah, it's going to bog maybe a designer down a little bit to get somebody up to speed. There's going to be definitely impact here, but at least we're getting paid for it. Or sharing some of the cost with a client. Or again, who cares why? As long as it's happening? Yeah, who cares why? [01:21:02] Speaker D: I would say it's also on the business side, Aaron, that's the way you can retain your clients. Right. I mean, clients want to align with people who do good work. [01:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:13] Speaker C: It's like what you said earlier, Aaron, about why you love Apple. [01:21:17] Speaker D: Right? [01:21:17] Speaker C: Because branding, it all comes back to a sense of belonging, right? We align with brands that represent our philosophies, our thoughts, who we want to be. And that translates for clients, for us, and for our studios as well. Right. Like clients, they want to be a certain way. They want to contribute. They want to make a social impact. If we, as companies, are making that social impact and allows them to do it through us, then that's a differentiator and reason for working with studios who are doing these things. [01:21:57] Speaker A: What should students be learning? You know what's interesting? This is like an adjacent thing, something, Austin, that you were talking from, like, a teaching perspective. Austin and I are kind of working on this idea of just this notion that graphic design should include motion. Design should include motion. It's so interesting, though, because changing education is so like, to even suggest that a graphic design curriculum include motion as a core component means basically changing the fundamental of designs back to the printing price days. But nobody's reading things on printed things anymore. They're looking at things on their friggin phones. You know what I mean? [01:22:45] Speaker B: Right. And the metrics. Right. I mean, when you do the whole data driven, it's like that motion is what captures people's attention. That's what's effective. I had this conversation with a student the other day where they were looking at, they were like, oh, I'm doing 36 days of type. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And then they were like, oh, there's some really cool motion stuff up there. And that brought up this whole, like, yeah, if you go back, I think that whole initiative is like a ten years old. Right. I'd be curious. I actually now want to track, like. [01:23:21] Speaker C: Okay, I want to see how much. [01:23:23] Speaker B: More motion is on 36 days of type in the last ten years. Right. As a little bit of, I don't know, proof of concept for. Yeah. Motion as a pillar of graphic design. [01:23:38] Speaker D: Yeah. And to me, what's interesting is, if you think about it, graphic design is a time based. I don't know what you call that profession. Right. What do you do with graphic design? You build hierarchies. You want people to look here first before you look somewhere else. It's based on words, which require a sequence of, like, one. ABCD 1234. It's all motion, really. Just your eyes. [01:24:06] Speaker A: 100%. [01:24:08] Speaker B: I got to write stuff down. Graphic design is time based media. [01:24:12] Speaker A: It is because what we were taught is, like, where we're moving our eye in a still. Okay, first you're going to read the headline, then I'm going to move you to here. Maybe the first thing that captures your interest is the image, the illustration or the photography. But as a designer, you're telling a story in one image. But now we have the luxury of, like, okay, now we have the image and the type comes in and it's a little bit. That's so great. That is like, the best way I've ever heard it explained. The best way I've ever heard it explained. Can we have that? Can we. [01:24:47] Speaker D: Heal us? [01:24:51] Speaker A: What is design activism interesting? [01:24:54] Speaker B: Well, is there anything that we. Anything we missed or anything that you guys want to. Want to talk about in context to this conversation? [01:25:03] Speaker C: Yeah, kind of. Just one more thing. Just about just design with, not for, and just like, the idea of kind of social activism through dEsign. I think most people, not all, but I think most people want to feel like a sense of fulfillment with their jobs. And I've gone through this a lot. I was like, we're designing for tech companies, or animating XYZ for this product, or in advertising. What am I contributing? Right. What is my profession contributing to the greater good in terms of society? And that's something that I really kind of stress in terms of inclusive motion design. And just thinking like a bridge studio is like, this is a way for us to give back. This is a way to make a change, to make an impact. And that's just something that I think is appealing to many, many people in design and in motion design particularly, it's not just about art and commerce. It can be so much more if you make it, if you have that mentality, if you think about it that way. [01:26:17] Speaker D: I would say, like, design activism has been around forever, and we, as studio owners, individuals, freelancers, whoever, work for a company most of our time, we think about what we create is not always going to be exciting all the time. You will have to work on a lot of projects that we consider to be boring, let's say that way. [01:26:42] Speaker C: Right. [01:26:42] Speaker D: But when you focus about. Yeah, well, I'm going to say NTAC can be really exciting. I love NTAC, but I'm saying that when you stop thinking about what you create, but what's going on behind the scenes, what it takes to make that, or who it takes to make that, or who you can help to make that, it changes things. The work is no longer about whether it's beautiful, boring. You're actually making a social impact because your focus is behind the scenes. [01:27:17] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a lot of what you make, why you make it, how you make it. [01:27:24] Speaker B: I got to switch my earbuds real quick. [01:27:26] Speaker C: They died. [01:27:28] Speaker B: But there was something I wanted to add, but I'm going to switch and resync. [01:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really impactful because, yeah, I think most people see, even our studio, like, our website, has a lot of beautiful work on there. And certainly the other work that we do is beautiful, too. But that is not all of the work we do. We do a ton of other work that either we can't show or we don't want to. For some reason, it all goes into because it kind of dilutes the message. Part of having a portfolio is editing to the portfolio. So this not only is the work we've done, but directionally where we want to go. And so that's the reason you would. Or make it more aspirational. But all that work exists, and we send it out in reels when you want to get jobs. So it's all kind of working for us. But there are lots of reasons you would be excited about your job. And I think, for me, the biggest thing I love about work, it used to be the work, the design, doing the work and doing big, high profile work. But now I just love my team. And even when people come and go, I like laughing all day, I like talking. Even when people leave and they go and do something great, I still feel, like, so much pride in that. Like I was somehow a part of it, you know what mean, like. And that's a different level of being. And I think that's what you're a little bit talking about. It's like how we all influence each other. [01:29:07] Speaker D: That makes you, Aaron, a bridge network studio owner. Right. I think when you stop acting like an owner and acting like a coach, that's when it changes. When you're not telling people what to do, you're not asking people what you can get out of them. [01:29:26] Speaker A: Right. [01:29:26] Speaker D: But what you can work with them and think about their long term growth instead of what they can contribute to your studio. [01:29:35] Speaker A: Yeah. My big thing is as an executive creative director, sometimes my job is to go in there and be like, you're doing great. Even if I would do something different, you're doing great. You're knocking it out of the park. Everybody's happy. Everybody feels ownership. You're happy. It's not on me to like, I've already influenced it. I've hired you, I've trained you. We brought in this team if it needs some impact and influence in a certain way, and I feel that I'll come in and we'll have a chat, but just having the confidence, and if something's going weird, I can come in and be like, okay, who do I have to talk to to take the punch? My job is to take the hit, not my team. You know what I mean? Even if I had nothing to do with it, I'm like, what's going on? Okay, I'll call and I'll take the swing, and then I'll defend you, and then I'll help usher it back into your hands so that somebody had to take the hit. But it's always got to be me that takes the hit. That's the big thing. I don't want my team to take it. I have total confidence in them, and that's a big thing because most people are like, I'm not taking the hit. I didn't do anything wrong. But I'm like, well, sometimes people just need to be mad at somebody, and who better than to be mad at than the person whose name is on the company? So I'll go take it. It makes me feel bad, like something's going on, but it doesn't hurt my identity. And I always know that there's a path forward, but it's interesting. It's interesting. Run towards the fire. Don't run away. That's my philosophy. What were you going to say, Austin? I was waiting for you. Yeah. [01:31:20] Speaker B: Oh, I was just going to say with the design activism and just a personal, like, my own experience with. [01:31:32] Speaker C: Know. [01:31:32] Speaker B: With George Floyd, there was a time where I just felt like, all right, I needed to use some of my skills to just say, and I guess it was the start of the pandemic, so we all had more time in our hands. I don't know. I started just making stuff and posting stuff and being more vocal about it and using my skills to make a statement and just felt like I needed to. I just felt like I can't not say something. The experience for me, actually reflecting on being a commercial artist, creating work for clients, being a professional in that context, but creating this other set of work that was more. It just connected to a passion and really just made me excited about making in a way that was different. And it felt and feels important, right? Like there's a real meaning behind it. I don't know. I think for me, it's just being an important and valuable experience as a creative and as a person and just being able to kind of have these skills. I have this position of privilege that how could I not stand up? How could I not say something for different groups that are important to me? Because not only I have people in my life and I have students in my life who are represented in these groups, but just because I'm a human, right? Wanting the world to be a better. [01:33:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what it's all about, Austin. It's all about, we're all humans. We're all more alike than we are different. And the world, I think, is getting better, and we can continue to push it to improve and to evolve. And I think it's like, it's not a marathon. I mean, it's not a sprint. It's a marathon. And that's what's happening right now. So many people had these great intentions. Their energy levels are waning, and now they're getting back to normal life, that the pandemic is over, and George Floyd is a few years behind us, and people kind of just move on. So I think it's our job to try to continue pushing and try to keep that energy going and not give up and keep moving for the next generation. That's the hard part, continually doing the hard work in trenches, day in, day out, day in, day out. [01:34:07] Speaker D: And I think the important thing here is that people in our community, in our industry, are in those trenches, our boots on the ground to create popular culture. I mean, that's what you see everywhere. It has some graphic designers hand in it, emotional designers hand in it. Social media, TV. You turn your head and you see our work. So if we have a mentality to change the perception of that world, imagine. Right, but impact, that's a great way of putting it. [01:34:39] Speaker A: That is great. Like, little decisions we make can change things. [01:34:44] Speaker C: Little, small, little things. Visibility is there, tactical small things, but you just got to keep doing them. Yeah. [01:34:52] Speaker A: Well, this has been a really great chat. I can't thank you guys enough. [01:34:55] Speaker D: Yes. [01:34:56] Speaker B: Thank you so much. [01:34:57] Speaker C: I appreciate you. And I can't believe we're almost 2 hours in and it felt like 15 minuTes. [01:35:05] Speaker A: It did feel fat, but it was a lot to talk about. And you guys have such grace and courtesy and curiosity around it, and, yeah, I really appreciate it. I think people are going to really enjoy this talk because it's not just talking about what's wrong. It's talking about what's actually getting better and how to actually do little things. [01:35:30] Speaker D: Right. [01:35:30] Speaker B: Some concrete steps. Tactical concrete. Hey, this is. [01:35:35] Speaker D: Yeah, that's it. [01:35:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:35:38] Speaker C: One last thing. I'm going to throw out there, Aaron, is. I don't know when this episode comes out, if it'll be public, but we signed on with School of Motion to give scholarships to eight diverse designers, animators. So that's another thing that's totally doable. It's a tactical small things like, hey, give people a scholarship because a lot of people from these backgrounds, they can't afford to go to school or go back to like these small little things. That's what hung and I are all about, is talking the big picture, the big strategy. But having these little, small things. [01:36:22] Speaker D: We call it tactical. In Modi, for example, with the scholarships, it's easy to kind of, as a studio, say, here's some money scholarship, take the course. But we don't want to do that alone. We want to know what impact it would have. So what we're going to do is we're going to do pre interviews with them. We want to understand where they want to go with their career, recommend the course, and then we also going to give them a survival kit to start. So we call the VN motion the survival kit. And that would include the dictionary of all the terms studios usually use when they talk about what is a hold, all these things that they should know if they go into the industry as a freelancer, as a staff, whatever. And actual business advices from Ricardo in terms of like when you reach out to people, do a cold email, what you should do from the creatives in some like what we're looking for as the perfect collaborator and from a producer in term of what you should do to make sure the producer would love you to death and book you aGain. So practical information skills. [01:37:37] Speaker A: And that's the stuff we like to talk about. It's not so much like what's being made. It's like what to expect for somebody that's leaving school and going into the world. What is it like at a studio and what are the things you can make with motion? Like, literally just like, let's start thinking of it as a culture and not just as a profession of a thing that you make. It's not just a factory where you go and make this thing. There's a culture around motion design and business practices around motion design that just aren't talked about. Most times, people just go and look at whoever the cool designer of the day is. Talk at FITC, which I'm going to be in a couple of days. But you know what, you know, it's been gmonk and people and all these people where it's just for. For us, for Austin and I, we've always talked about, like, okay, how do you move from the academic environment into a professional environment if you're not at SCAD or ringling or art center at one of these elite kind of motion design schools? You know what I mean? How do you prep your portfolio? What does it look like? What are people thinking when they look at your work? What happens if you don't hear back? Should you send it again? What does that mean? So really kind of creating. [01:38:56] Speaker B: Just how to navigate. [01:38:57] Speaker A: Talk about that stuff, how to think about it. So what you're doing is so practical, too. I love it. I love practical solutions. That's like one person at a time, two people at a time. [01:39:10] Speaker D: And the idea of a bridge network studio is basically, we would hope that we can get to become a bridge studio network where many studios can pull resources together and bring people together. For example, if we had someone coming through our studio, that was really great. I want to pass her, them to you, Aaron, and say, this person's been great. Take now you can level up, because we do see us here and you here. So now it's time to go to Swabsky and level up. Right? And imagine if that person gets to go somewhere else. Imagine in five years, where is that person going to be? [01:39:46] Speaker A: Totally back at Apple, making all the money. [01:39:52] Speaker D: There you go. But that's going to be the person who's going to change the branding of Apple to make sure that Austin can see what he saw. [01:40:05] Speaker B: This is all making me think of you guys. [01:40:07] Speaker C: Remember the spot? [01:40:08] Speaker B: The girl effect? [01:40:09] Speaker A: Oh, I love the girl effect. [01:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah, the girl effect. [01:40:12] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:40:12] Speaker B: I mean, that whole idea of the change builds, right? [01:40:17] Speaker A: One of the top. [01:40:20] Speaker C: Totally. All right, cool. [01:40:23] Speaker B: And then at some point, yeah, at some point in the future, maybe next year, I want to talk to you guys about getting. Maybe even getting you out for a workshop. [01:40:29] Speaker D: I think that would be really, like. [01:40:32] Speaker B: It doesn't have to just be motion, right? It could just be, like design. [01:40:36] Speaker D: Yeah. We worked out a pretty fun workshop. That's fun. It's a serious topic, but it can be fun. But before I go, I just want to really say thank you, Aaron. [01:40:47] Speaker A: Awesome. [01:40:48] Speaker B: Thank you, guys. [01:40:50] Speaker C: We appreciate it so much. This is awesome. Hope everybody has a great weekend, and we'll talk soon. Thank you, guys. Thank you both so much. [01:40:58] Speaker A: Thank you.