Interview with Sofie Lee

[00:00:00] Speaker A: It. Hi, I'm Aaron Strawski. [00:00:03] Speaker B: And I'm Austin Shaw. [00:00:04] Speaker A: This is between the Keyframes episode 29 interview with Sophie Lee what's up, everybody? [00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to between the keyframes. We are here with a very special guest, Sophie Lee. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Hey, Sophie. [00:00:27] Speaker B: Sophie is a super talented designer, motion designer, illustrator, an art direction storyboard art. Sophie is also one of my alums from when I taught at SCAD. And Sophie also did the COVID of the second edition of The Motion, getting my titles all mixed up, design for motion. And Erin did the forward for this. So we got this whole, like, full circle. Yeah. Sophie, what year did you graduate from SCAD? [00:01:07] Speaker C: I graduated in 2018, summer. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Okay, so 2018, and then you went and worked at Oddfellows in Portland, and you worked there for a couple of years, right? [00:01:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I was in Portland for like two years and a half, but I actually worked for a bit less than two years. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Okay, that's right. And then you went freelance, and I know you kind of right before the pandemic, right? [00:01:39] Speaker C: I know. If I think about it, I feel like it was meant to be. [00:01:48] Speaker B: Right. And you've been working as a freelancer since then. I know you've worked with Buck and other studios and other brands. Right. And done some educational work as mean. Today is going to be a fun episode because we're going to get to know Sophie a little more, but Sophie's also going to ask Erin some. [00:02:15] Speaker C: Know. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So let's dig in. Yeah. You want to tell us a little bit about your background, Sophie? [00:02:22] Speaker C: Yeah, of course. So I was born and raised in South Korea, and then luckily, I was grown up in an environment that it was pretty artistic. Like, my dad, he also wanted to be a painter and artist, but by that time, it wasn't that value. My grandfather didn't think he would make living out of it, so he was still singing the house and then would draw with me all the time. So if I look back my childhood, I feel somewhat very privileged and very thankful. And so as I grown up, it was kind of like, natural for me that, oh, I want to do something creative. But then when I was a teenager, I was pretty lost. I didn't know what to pursue and didn't know what to go after. And so I went to Canada, Vancouver, to study English and meet new culture, and then I was there for a bit, and then I moved to La. Where I studied graphic design. And then it was just like a community college, like two years of community college. And honestly, I didn't really expect much and was just like, looking for a job after that and something that maybe like working for street fashion, that was something I was interested in and never thought that I would make a living out of doing animation, though. I really loved animation. But then I met really awesome professors and my colleagues, and they were the ones kind of put fire in my creative endeavor. It was just really awesome. And I'm still in touch with a lot of them and then they're doing really well. And then we were like, okay, we're at the community college. And then some of my friends start to transfer to other universities to study more. And so one of my professors at the college, she actually recommend me to go to SCAD and apply. And then fortunately, I got scholarship and then I transferred as a graphic design major. But I felt like I was looking for something more that kind of like connecting some of the lost thoughts that I was seeking. Uh, I think I had a meeting with John Colette for 2 hours and a half. Yeah, 2 hours and a half. And then I was so convinced to transfer to Motion Media design, I guess my creative voice, and then the love all started from there. [00:05:23] Speaker B: So you started at SCAD in Graphic Design, and then how long were you studying graphic design at SCAD before you switched to the motion media department? [00:05:33] Speaker C: I think for a. [00:05:37] Speaker B: I mean, and that's cool that you met with John. What were some of the other things that you felt like, whoa, I got to be in yeah, yeah. [00:05:49] Speaker C: So I was working at like really late, and then I guess like a group of students, they were working on a title sequence for Commotion. But I had no idea, I was like, wow, that looks like graphic design, but they're moving in a really cool way. Depths and really crazy animation and colors and everything and then music altogether. So I walked up to them like, hey, if you don't mind asking me asking, what is this about? And they're like, oh, this is for a title sequence for Commotion. So that was before I switched my major. Yeah, I think that really triggered a. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Couple of follow ups and a clarity. One, what were you doing at Monty? And then also for the listeners who don't know what Monte is. So montgomery hall. That is the digital media building at the Savannah College of Art and Design. So basically it's this factory. I think it was like, it's a 60,000 square foot factory that the university purchased and turned into the Digital Media Building. So it has motion media, animation, major visual effects, and then interactive and game design. So I know this quite well because I spent ten years teaching in that building. So just some clarification what that is. But yeah. What were you doing in Monty as a graphic designer? As a graphic design student, yeah. [00:07:20] Speaker C: So graphic design department building was like near the downtown, I think, right? Yeah. But I was like living in Montgomery dorm. [00:07:32] Speaker B: Got it right. [00:07:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And so it was literally right in front of my so you can go. [00:07:38] Speaker B: And do work okay. So basically, yeah, it's some more insight to people checking this out and don't know SCAD. So that building Montgomery Hall, Monty for short, they basically made it almost like its own little campus because they built dorms there and there's a dining hall, so you were living in the dorms there, so that made sense that you would work, do your homework in Monty. And this sort of brings, I think, Aaron like this idea full circle. The at, right? The Motion media design department was in the school of digital media. Graphic Design was in a whole nother college, right? In the university. It was in the school communication and in a whole nother know that's that's something that Aaron and I have been kicking around, is building this bridge between traditional graphic design. And. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Anyway, I also think as you tell the story, I can't help but think about people that went to school during the pandemic. So much of going to college for me was not so much the experience I had in my major. It was adjacent, you know what I mean? It was like I was in the school of Design, but the photography school was like, right there. And so I took photography classes and I hung out with photographers, and that influenced my work so much so that when I look back on it and when I think about my work, I think, like, it wasn't that special. What did people see in it? But now when I look back at the work, I'm like, oh, it had a photographic quality. So even though I was working with lines and type and all this stuff, I would add grain and vignettes and do all this kind of stuff to it that made all of my work feel filmed, you know what I mean? That's all the stuff I learned in those photography classes. And then there was, of course, the programming aspect and understanding not just how to make things look good, but why they look good, you know what I mean? There was things of not just how to make a thing, but really how to make a thing. And so I wonder about when you go to school. You go to school thinking, you know, but while you're there, you learn so much more than you thought you did. I mean, think about the transformation that happens when you graduate high school to when you're finishing your career in college. And that's not something like it's hard to tell somebody that those years of transformation from a personal and a professional and the skill set gathering are so. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Substantive, but if you opportunities for synchronicity. [00:10:24] Speaker A: To happen yeah, and I do believe a lot can happen, like work from home and online. I think that there are efficiencies there, but I think there's something missing also when you're not with people in person. Right? [00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: The chance encounters and said, what is that? [00:10:45] Speaker B: And they told you and they told. [00:10:47] Speaker A: You and obviously welcomed you into their know that's like a beautiful inspiring story. And the way you found your way to it was going to Vancouver and getting a grasp of the language and then going to a community college in California and being like, hey, I kind of like this and then a professor seeing something in you and saying like, you should look into this. And then I just think so many things led you to where you need to be and I just wonder if that and maybe it is, but maybe it's not that it would be possible to do without showing up and being in the presence of people. [00:11:28] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. If I were to look back and then kind of see where it all started, I must confess that it was like a group of people that I was hanging out with when I was hanging out in La. The people that I was hanging out with, they were really into skateboarding. And then I'm also a huge fan of bands, so it was so natural for me to love the street fashion and then all the California sunlight and then the chill, and then I moved to SCAD, and then I was, like, hanging out at Montgomery Monty all the time. And in that building they had VFX animation, motion Media design. So those are the group of people that I would like hanging out all the like things have changed a lot, but when I was in my high school or in the middle school in South Korea, when I say to my friends, like, oh, I love animation, that's instantly like, oh, you're a nerd. You know what I mean? And that's not the best compliment to female student. And so I think I would hide a little bit and only talk to people like student or I mean my friends who are interested in animation. But then when I went to SCAD and hang out with Monty, that's literally the stuff that we would talk about it all the time, so totally. Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker B: You talked about your dad being creative. Has that been a place that you've connected with him on? [00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I think my dad often expressed said, oh, I wish I had pursued creative path. And then he loved writing a song or singing a song and loved drawing and painting and he told me that that was one of the way to express himself, which I think it was naturally passed on me. So I think my parents are very supportive of me pursuing the creative path and then they've been a huge influence. Was that your question? [00:13:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm always curious about that. Absolutely. [00:14:03] Speaker A: Well, I know Austin just like I think we all have because you come from a family with a photography background and the art, so they were already earning very good livings in creative. [00:14:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:20] Speaker A: I think for most cultures that is considered a luxury that people can't you can't afford to go do this. [00:14:30] Speaker B: It doesn't seem like a viable career path. Right. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Unless you know somebody in it or you yourself have family in it, it doesn't seem like realistic. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah. When I went to college to study design, my parents kind of had a conversation behind my back, and it was kind of like, well, we're going to be supporting her forever. And I think there's that thought in people's head, and they sent me to RIT and spent a pretty penny to do so. I'm sure I got some financial, some small scholarships and stuff, but by and large, I think they paid it. It wasn't me that paid it. It was them. So I can only imagine how they're feeling and thinking if they feel like I'm studying and spending all of this money at a private school, only to think that somehow they're going to have to continue to support me after. [00:15:35] Speaker B: Little did they know. [00:15:36] Speaker A: No, I know, but little did they know. There's so much money to be made as an artist. Even in arts that are crafts, there's a lot of opportunity. There is a lot of opportunity for handcrafted people are that's a big thing. [00:15:59] Speaker B: No, I think for me, having grown up in a family of kind of creative professionals and not only know my father, my grandfather right. Generations of my it's it was very normal for but and then working with a lot of students who maybe come from it sounds like for Sophie, you're kind of in the like there's this appreciation, and now you're kind of getting to live that out, which I think is super cool. Or then there are some students who are just like, they're going against the grain, where it's just like, no support. It's like they're out there just like, no, I believe I can do this. To me, it's always an interesting, I guess, origin story for people. But there was one other question I wanted to just ask about that transition from graphic design to motion and just yeah. What was the big for you? What was that selling point where you were studying? You studied graphic design in community college. You studied it for a year at SCAD, but then you made this decision to switch. So what made you want to change your major? [00:17:13] Speaker C: Yeah, so I think the biggest selling point was that when I was working, I mean, I did some internship at a college, and then I was working as a freelance graphic designer, I kind of felt like graphic design is for business. I didn't know how to create and using the method of graphic design to express how I feel or telling my own story. And it was just very branding oriented and then business oriented. And then the assets that I would play with in my work was already built by an Illustrator or created by another typographer. So I wanted something more to tell deeper story. So then I saw the title sequence Commotion, there was definitely a storytelling. Like something starts and then that, and then ends in this and then deliver the really strong message, but using a lot more powerful elements. Sometimes they even create the asset, like in Cinema Four D or Illustrator, it's not just like a shapes or typography. They actually use the composition using the shapes. And it was just like a lot more fun. And then for me, it felt like I'm kind of like liberating my creative idea to tell different ways to convey the story, if that makes sense. [00:18:46] Speaker A: Yeah, narrative, we get to tell the story. And it is interesting how in motion design, we really do create a lot of stuff from scratch. I think people don't really realize. Certainly we can use stock things and things like that, but by and large, a lot of what you see, we literally start with nothing and have to make a story, some kind of narrative, communicate some kind of message. [00:19:18] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. And then we can also use music that which really accelerates the whole project. So yeah, it was just like once I saw it, it was kind of impossible to go back from where I was. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Right on. And then when you made your transition from being a student to being a. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Professional, how is the professional world different than you expected? Especially going from school in a place like SCAD where everything is so I don't know. I want to say gray and rosy and you have skilled professors and everything is kind of like a yes. And. [00:20:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I was pretty terrified at school because I knew how much support I was getting. I had friends to talk to who completely understand what I do and basically share the sorrow or hardship that we went through altogether. And then the professor that I could literally just reach out through email and then, can I get your support or what do you think about this? So I was pretty terrified before I graduated. But back to your question. I think one of the things was like, learning is endless. I really thought I was ready before I graduated Scat because I learned this and that and that. I'm going to be working at Op Fellows. So I felt like, okay, vacation mode is on because SCAD was so tough to survive. So I really thought, wow, all the hard stuff is over, and now I'm going to be having fun creating and doing my hobbies. I think one of the things that was different was like, learning is endless. And another thing was kind of like extension from learning is endless that I only knew how to create. But I felt like I was really behind of growing as an adult. I was pretty lost how to behave myself and I was pretty lost how to it was just really chaotic for me because I'm like a daughter of my mom. Oh, I am a designer at Altfellows, but I'm also friends of my friend. All these roles started to really confusing me. So that was a little bit different than what I imagined because I really thought I was prepared for the next chapter, but just like so much to catch up and so much to learn. And then the last thing would be people are really serious about the job. It's not a joke. But at the same time there was room for me to make mistake because people were still really generous and caring. Yeah, well oh God, what you said. [00:22:40] Speaker A: Is so thoughtful, lovely. It's just so beautiful. [00:22:47] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:22:48] Speaker A: I think people are going to really connect with that. It's so interesting as a studio owner when we go to hire people. It's so interesting because when you see a candidate, a young or even older, but just coming out of school thinking like, they got this. And I just want to be like and of course, I can never say this, but I can say this here and maybe people will listen and know I'm thinking it is. I know you have this beautiful portfolio and you accomplish so much in school, but you're just getting started. For me, I know you don't know anything and I'm just hoping that you're teachable because a lot of what happens in school because it's a yes and the world is a no, but school is yes and the world is no but. And what I mean by that is in school you can make decisions and people are just giving you suggestions and telling you how great it is because of course it is great. But in the world, once you show the work, even if it's the most brilliant thing, if the client still has time and money, they're going to give you feedback. And any kind of feedback comes off as a no. Often there's a but it's beautiful and we love it and we appreciate everything you put in. But it's also like, okay, well, can you explore this? And what if the character did something more like this? And what if we lose this shot? That incidentally you spent two weeks animating, right? And do put that over there. That's why I say the world doesn't know but. And so it takes a lot of strength and courage every day to come in to all of those no buts. And as you grow into yourself as an artist, an animator, and like you say, as a person, you learn they're not so much no buts as that's just part of the job. You know what I mean? There's no other way to give feedback other than to say change everything again and again and again until it's not going to get changed anymore. And then as you get more experience and you do it over and over and over again, you start to see themes and trends for what those changes are and why there might be changes. So you start to kind of grow into as you're working on something. Maybe I should give a version like this, just in case. You start to get that intuition of, like, maybe when they said, make the logo bigger, it was actually that they can't see the logo because the background is so busy. Maybe that's what's going on. And you can start to make these decisions because the experience matters and it adds up. And if you're thoughtful and mindful as you're living through the experience, that means that you're going to get to the result faster with less no's. And that's for the other side of it. You're right. I mean, coming out of school, you're providing for yourself, you're looking for a place to live. You're learning probably about car insurance and health insurance and very adult renters insurance, which I highly recommend. Renters insurance. If you lose your laptop anywhere in the world, you get your money. Yeah. Renters insurance. It covers all your personal property, even if you're traveling. Yeah. Stolen bike. [00:26:23] Speaker B: This part of the conversation is making me think of this idea of asymmetrical development, that life is often that right. That we might maybe you're excelling in one area, but there are other areas where it's like you got to catch up a little and vice versa. Right. It's interesting. There were two with that. [00:26:43] Speaker A: I was just going to say that was making me think, like, if I'm achieving at work, it's kind of like that devil where's Prada thing. Then you're failing at home. You know what I mean? Everything can have all of you all at once. And there are ways to maybe not fail at home, but if you are giving something, like most of your energy, that means that these other some things in your life are not getting it. There's just no way of controlling that. Yeah. Sorry, Austin, I cut you off. [00:27:15] Speaker B: Oh, no worries, no worries. I was going to say, I have two more things and then we could transition to Sophie asking Erin questions. One is this observation. So this story, because I didn't know that anecdote about how you were hanging out in Monty before you were in the Major and that you saw these students working on the Commotion titles and you asked them. But I do know that a couple or a year or two later, the way the Commotion titles worked is the students would pitch and then whoever won the pitch would become the kind of the director, the art director creative lead, and that Sophie had won the lead when you were a senior. And you got to lead and be the creative director on that project. I remember at that point, it had begotten pretty professional. There'd be like 2030 students working on. It was a production. So Sophie and I think you had some other co leads, but you were really the design lead on that year's titles for commotion. So that's kind of neat, that full circle. Just wanted to observe on that. And then the other thing is that Sophie being an OG design promotion alum right. It's always good. You always encourage me to keep pushing and keep developing and keep teaching that class. And I don't know, just any thoughts that you wanted to share or experiences about design promotion, what it means for you. [00:28:54] Speaker C: Yeah, I fell in love with social media design, but in reality, I was already junior and I was about to graduate within a year and three months. So I really had little time to put my portfolios and learn all these animation techniques and design for Motion. So there is one moment that I almost going back to graphic design, because I was like, there's just no way that I can learn all this after effect animation or frame by frame and know how to draw storyboard. And it was just really overwhelming because I'm not coming from animation background. Even the terms were so alien for me. But then my friends were like, yeah, Sophie, have you taken a class like design for Motion? You don't have to animate and I was like, oh, that's great, because I love designing for Motion and for animation, because it's not like I'm fresh out of high school. I knew what my strength was, what I was interested in, so I took the classes, and it was kind of like a third eye opening. One is like, okay, I can maybe get a job just being a designer in our industry. And two, it was like a totally different creative process, like designing for Motion. And then it was just so much creative thinking, so much concepting. And based on that, like doing textile and illustrative typography driven or like met painting. We did it like the met painting. Right. One of the assignments. So it was just like a lot to explore and kind of find my own voice, like, what is my strength, and at the same time, what is my weaknesses? So I always tell Shaw that because I've gotten so much out of that class, genuinely, and I still follow that process these days. So I still tell Shaw, you should keep pitching that class. I'm sure so many students would appreciate know yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker A: That's you know it's. So people look at what we go and look at what we do, and they go, wow, where do you even start? [00:31:24] Speaker C: Right? [00:31:24] Speaker A: And it's like, well, read the book. It's right there. [00:31:27] Speaker C: Take the. [00:31:29] Speaker A: That'S like a process that was I think you did a great job of just getting it down and building a class around what we actually did in the world. So it wasn't something made up outside of the context of work. It actually happened at work to create a process. Because I think what people also don't realize is that we have to kind of bring the client along with us on all stages of the process. Like, here are some ideas. Here's what it could look like. Here's a little test of how it can move. And you basically just work on getting buy in at each kind of step of the you know what. That kind of process shaw that you outlined that's so great is that it is a process. We start with mind mapping. We start with coming up with keywords, which is great, because then you're setting up a paradigm for success. So when you create a frame, it could be the most beautiful frame. But if I check it against that word list, well, does it fail or pass? Okay, well, it fails because I'm not seeing that it's a spy thriller. It feels more like a comedy. Okay, well, we're starting over. You failed the test. So that's what I love about that. It is a clear process that you can constantly check back on. And then when you eventually have beautiful frames and you go to animate them, when you go to animate them, does it still look like my frames? And then when you're adding cadence and pacing, well, does it feel funny? Because it's supposed to feel kinetic. You know what I mean? So why is it boinging again, you're constantly checking it back against all of this stuff that you did earlier in the process, and you're not just jumping into animating something that you all comes. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Back to the brief. Does it serve the brief? Does it answer brief? [00:33:18] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. [00:33:21] Speaker B: Right on. Well, unless you've got any other background questions for Sophie Aaron, do you have. [00:33:26] Speaker A: Any other well, we wrote them all. [00:33:29] Speaker B: No, no. I mean, I think we hit them pretty cool, so all right. At this point, we're going to transition this to Sophie kind of taking on the role of interviewer for Erin and really to dig into some questions about what it's like being a female creative in this industry. [00:33:54] Speaker C: Okay, so, Erin, I think growing careers and just, like, life in general, I think it's like, piles of making decisions, and sometimes because I haven't experienced or I never experienced about things, that I tend to hesitate or kind of step back. So do you have any advice about making decisions both in career and life general? [00:34:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really good question. Decisions, I think you just have to make them. I once had a lawyer say to me, not making a decision is a decision, and that's haunted me ever since. You can make a bad decision, and that's okay. You'll learn from it. You can make a good decision, but nothing comes of just being stalled. Of just being stalled. At a certain point, you do some research, you get a feel for what might feel right, and you go and you just kind of got to live with the consequences of it and just know that whatever the consequences are, they will be better than have been sitting in that. Kind of paralyzed nondecision moment. Because again yeah. Making no decision is a decision. It's literally choosing nothing, which is horrible. It's horrible. Yeah. I just think only good can come from being decisive and being thoughtful. And it's interesting because being a director, like when you're a live action director and even when you're a studio owner, I always just say I'm like the decider. That's basically my job is to make the decisions and then deal with the consequences of them. And sometimes those consequences are good and I get to show cool work and look at this thing I made and sometimes the consequences are terrible and I have to be the one that bears the burden of them, but at least something happens so that everything can move forward and we can just keep on keeping on. [00:36:08] Speaker C: Yeah, that is a really good advice and I think it's going to be lingering with me a little bit. Like not making decision is actually the worst decision. Yeah. And then if you think about it, even if I make a bad decision, I'm only going to learn from it and make sure I don't choose that next time, right? [00:36:31] Speaker A: Yes. Again, it's like to your original .1 of the first things you said about your job is you realize that, oh my God, the learning is just beginning. You cannot prevent things from happening. Good things, bad things. You cannot prevent it. You could just kind of be open to learning. It's one of those things. Like if there is a decision in front of you, I'm not saying to jump wildly into a decision because you have to make a decision. Think about it, ask people, do the proper research, be mindful, then just do it. Just make the decision. It's a hard call often, but there was a couple of weeks ago, we had three amazing jobs that were bidding three amazing jobs. We could not take all three. We wanted to take two so that we knew that we could focus and do a good job. But these are three jobs that anybody in this industry would have died to be on. They were that good. And so I got on a call with my creative directors and my EP and my head of production. I said, okay, it is decision time. Because sometimes I want the input of other people. We have to make decisions and at the end of this conversation we are deciding to chase two and let go of what I had to make that decision. I was just ultimately deciding that one of these we're not pursuing and let's talk and figure out which who we are and which one we're not. And man, it was like, but this is so great for this reason and this is so great for that reason. And at the end of it, after a long hour of just talking it to death, there was a decision and it sucked. It sucked like no matter what, it was going to suck. You know what I mean? But a decision was made. Was it the right decision? We will never know. We did wind up winning those other two jobs, so perhaps we would have won that job, too, and then we would have been maybe over it, or maybe if we were chasing a third one, we would have lost all of them because we were spread too thin to be pitching three jobs. So I think we made a good decision. Was it the exact right decision? Was it I could have brought another creative director and built another team and spent all that money to go after that job and spent a bunch more money to if we got it to do that. But it felt like the right decision to just chase two, and then it also then felt like the right decision to include my team, my key people in what we were going to chase and what we were going to let go of. [00:39:21] Speaker B: I think another way to just another thought on this, too, is like when you make a decision, you're a participant in the process, and you're a participant in what is happening versus it happening to you. It happening to you right now. I think also to clarify that idea, too, is a decision to not make a decision is still maybe sometimes it's just like, I don't have enough information and I'm not going to participate, and that's okay, too, but just being aware that that's the choice. [00:39:57] Speaker A: Yeah, but if you're not making a decision, then it's happening. Then you're probably of the mindset that, oh, this is happening to me, then. [00:40:05] Speaker B: You get bitter and resentful. [00:40:08] Speaker A: You're not taking responsibility for the well, you created an environment where of course it was going to happen to you. You took your own life choices out. [00:40:17] Speaker B: Of it in action. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:19] Speaker B: What's the Bob Dylan he who hesitates loss or is he who loses? Something like that Bob Dylan song. I got to look it up. You guys are like, Bob who? [00:40:35] Speaker A: Go, please. [00:40:40] Speaker C: Yeah, that was such a good advice. Yeah. I need to now apply to my life. [00:40:49] Speaker A: It's very challenging, but then I swear, every time I'm in a moment now where I'm like, oh, I got to decide. And I don't know, just that example from the other day is like, okay, I can't just let it happen to me. We can't just pitch all three of these things. We have to decide. We have to make a decision. This is my decision. It's my company. I'm deciding. But all the people that should have a say need to have a say in what it's going to be. And that's a way of empowering people to be a part of the process, but also making sure that whatever the consequences of that are, I can own those because I don't want to lose all three of these amazing jobs. But I also don't want to work on all three of these amazing jobs all simultaneously through a period of time where everybody's going to want off because. [00:41:44] Speaker B: We'Re going into spring, summer, hashtag metacognition. [00:41:50] Speaker A: Exactly. Because we've all been there. We've been through when it gets to be like a little extra, and it's like, oh, I should learn for next time exactly what that is. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Austin. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Self preservation. Yeah. [00:42:12] Speaker C: What was the selling point for you when you were switching from a stat position to building your own studio? [00:42:21] Speaker A: I was living in New York. I had lived in Chicago working at Digital Kitchen. I was in their office there. And then I moved to New York, which is where I met Shaw. And I was six, seven, eight, and was doing yeah, I was creative director for Superfad there. And I just missed Chicago. I missed the city. I missed my home here. I was here for six, seven years. I did not expect to love it, but really, really missed it. And I knew I wanted to come back, but I knew I wanted to keep working at a design led motion studio. And Chicago, with the exception of Digital Kitchen at that point had been very post house driven. So you had places like film workers with vitamin, and you had, I think Flavor was around at Cutters, and you had these kind of designy offshoots within bigger post house centric things. And now at this point, you have places like Scholar, which is Porta White House that are, I think, pretty separate. But back then, they were in the spaces of the other companies, and they just felt like a little piece off of this bigger thing that was really making all the money. And I really wanted to work at a design led place. Like, if somebody was calling, they weren't calling to do some edits and some color correction and also throw some design in. It was I needed a designer. Oh, shit. And where are we going to color correct this? And do you have an editor? You know what mean? Like, it was like design Led. And so I knew to come back here, I was going to have to start a thing. And my friend Tracy Bernard, who was the rep for Digital Kitchen, said she could start getting me some work. And that was like know, there was an initial kind of partnership with two other partners that fell apart within six, eight months. And we worked on like an Easy Mac commercial and a commercial for Rotary International. And when you go from doing big Super Bowl spots and Emmy winning main titles, you're just like, what the fuck am I doing? Is this really what I want to be doing? And the answer was no, it wasn't what I wanted to be doing, but I knew it was where I wanted to be doing it. And so after that partnership fell apart, which again, it was such a tiny little blip of my life. I was kind of feeling broken and heartbroken for the first time because I felt like, God, we were on to something. Why did you guys have to ruin this? Yes, it was going slow, but it was also like, 2007 eight. Of course it's 2008. Of course it's going to go slow. We're in a fucking recession. We should be lucky we're getting any work at all. And so moving into 2009, which is when I started the studio officially, like January of nine, it just started with this phone call from a friend who's working at an agency. And he was like, I got these spots. You want to work on them? And I was like, no, I don't have a company. I don't really know what's going on anymore. He goes, we'll make a new company. It was you that we wanted to work with anyway. Like, you're the talent. And I was like, okay. So I called my lawyer and my accountant, and they were like, okay, go fill out this paperwork. And that's why it's called Swarovsky, is because I didn't have time to figure anything else out. And we were still kind of in negotiation about how the other company was going to come apart or if it was going to come apart. But it was very clear I knew I wasn't working for it anymore. They were like, well, if you name it your name, it'll be very clear that you're not working there. And I was like, okay, we can always change it later. It's just some paperwork. And so that's how it became my name. But what was interesting is I know I own my own studio, and it's my name on the door, and I get credit for everything, and there's a lot of reasons for that. But I just wanted to be a creative director. Like a relevant creative director, doing great work in design led projects. That was my goal. My goal was not to be a giant studio owner with all the things and see my name and to be speaking everywhere on behalf of all that kind of extraneous stuff. It was to do the work like I wanted to do the work where I wanted to do it, like, location wise. And that's why it came to be that's really awesome. [00:46:58] Speaker C: I think I said it another day, but I think it's really unique that you're female studio owner in our industry, where our industry is kind of still male dominant. So I think it is really unique. And I've been always wanting to reach out to you and kind of asking you advice in both you're making creative decision, and then you're kind of like creative journey, like, where you started and then how you went through some stuff, and also your mom and you have your family. So for me, that's like, two really big things. I have much respect knowing that. Just be good at one thing is even hard for me. [00:47:55] Speaker A: I'm just mildly good at when I hire people, trust them to do their work, too. That's another thing. I think for me, there was a point at which I realized where I get better when I hire. Well, thoughtfully, I think also, when you move from hiring who you think you should hire to who you want to hire, there's a big difference there. [00:48:25] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. I'm sure there's a lot more to actually run the whole separate side. [00:48:33] Speaker A: Yeah, but it's not like all of a sudden I went from being that person that wanted to come back to Chicago to being the person I am now. And it's kind of like you going from school to then kind of starting at Odfellows and realizing, like, oh, gosh, I thought I knew what the hell was going on. What you realize is when you're at the table, you're at the table for a reason. You've got just enough experience to get you there, and then you have the opportunity to listen and learn and then to kind of keep growing and elevating within that. So I feel like I can look back and provide insights on what I did and didn't do right, but at the same time, everybody's going to go through their own journey. I think the key to your initial point is just you never stop learning. Whenever I've come to that place of I hands down on the table saying, but I know that sign that you do not know that. You just being closed minded. And the more it hurts or the more yelly I get or feel or dramatic I feel about it, the more wrong I often am. And I just have to move through that, breathe through it, accept it, and then just listen to what people are saying around me and to create space for that. I wanted to come back to work. I was like, all these people are wrong. Everybody needs to come back to work. Why would they want to be home all the time? That's crazy. And I was really frustrated and pissed off about it. And then I was like, well, Mondays and Fridays at home was kind of nice. Maybe there's compromise in here. Maybe I should listen and hear. And people's lives did change a lot, including my own. I was obstinate to the point where I didn't realize that there were changes that were made already through the pandemic that affected my life in a better way. But part of my rationale for it was just, I miss people so much. I miss laughing all day long at work. I missed laughing. There's people that we hired over the pandemic that I barely have been in the same room with still to this point. You know what I mean? And to me, I'm just like, that personal connection is so important to me. But also, that doesn't mean that it is for everybody else. That's just, like, what I have to work through and kind of find a balance for. But to the initial point of that something like I've really had to learn and walk through and to really think about and process and come to a different decision on and to know that whatever that decision is, in six months, I could feel differently, and so could everybody else, and that's okay. Yeah. [00:51:44] Speaker C: What was the point where you felt like, I'm ready to have my own family and then make a little person? I hope it's not, like, getting too personal, but because that's, like, completely new chapter for me, right? [00:52:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think probably a lot of women like me, we ask our doctor how many eggs we got left, what kind of rum? You know what I mean? I definitely was talking to my doctor. They were like, well, you're getting old. I think I was. [00:52:21] Speaker B: What? [00:52:21] Speaker A: Like, I must have been 38 or 37 at the time. And they were like, you got to start thinking you maybe have a couple of years left, but you got to start thinking about freezing some eggs, or better yet, freezing some embryos, which are fertilized eggs. Hope everybody knows that, but just in case they don't and to fertilize an egg, there needs to be, like, a man. And I was like, oh, shit, I don't have that either. I was very happy not having not really being in a relationship. I felt so much freedom. Not like I don't know. I just always felt like even though maybe that my parents dynamic didn't mimic this, but I always felt like they would get a say or get a say in a way that is invalidate my say in a um but it was really weird as I was kind of going through that. I did meet Kevin, and it was a really interesting thing because I'm like meeting this guy at this moment where I'm going through this physicality thing and thinking about my future and if I want to have kids. And he was five years younger, so I'm sure he wasn't thinking about that at all. In fact, I know he wasn't. And we were talking about moving in together, and I was just like, so here's the thing. And that definitely accelerated our relationship very quickly, and whether that's healthy or unhealthy, it happened. And he was like, Well, I do want to be a dad. And I feel like in some ways, we didn't really have time to really spend with each other before all you know, for Kevin and I, it was really a little early in our relationship to be talking about it, but I definitely had to talk about it because it was something I was going through. We were talking about moving in together, and so that definitely accelerated things, maybe more than it should have, but whatever it should or shouldn't have, it accelerated things, and we were like, okay, before we even think about getting married, let's see what happens. Maybe we'll get pregnant. Maybe we won't get pregnant. But we did get pregnant, and then actually we miscarried. And then I didn't realize it because when you miscarry, your body is all fucking fucked up and out of whack, and you don't really know what's going on. And so I didn't realize it, but on my next cycle, I had gotten pregnant, whereas with the first one, we knew so quickly on the second one, and what became rocket like Rocky, we didn't know until there was a heartbeat and all the things. So in a way, it was a blessing because I would have just been so nervous the whole time. And then I was like, I think something's weird. I haven't got my period and all the things. So I took a home test and was pregnant. And so then I scheduled, like, an immediate visit with the doctor. And she's like, yeah, let's do all the things that we're supposed to do. But apparently after you miscarry, you're very fertile, so that may be your body's way of making it up to you. And it was a good pregnancy. I did get very sick after. It was just I lost a lot of blood and yada, yada, yada. That's also something like, I had a very healthy pregnancy, but I've never just been sick like that. And I was so grateful to my team here, because even though I was here and showing up, you don't realize how tired you are or how deficient you are. And my creative directors really kicked ass, and they didn't need to be asked to take responsibility. They took it. And my executive producer, nobody said, Aaron, you're not up to snuff. Just go home. They were like, no, hang. Like, get your cup filled by us, but we're going to just take care of they just took care of everything. And that's what I mean. If you choose who you think you should have versus who you want to have, that's the difference in the team. That's the people you want around you. And they really kind of helped me through what was like a challenging time. It took, like, six, eight months for me to feel better. And once I felt better, I was like, oh, my God, what just happened? And Stephen was just, who's my managing director, executive producer. He's like, oh, yeah, you were in bad shape. We just dealt with everything, and it was incredible. And that's what I talk about when I talk about when you're building your network as a junior artist and meeting collaborators and in school and building your network, all of those people later in life, because everybody will have something. Everybody will get sick. Everybody will have a death in their family. Everybody will experience something in their life that is not pleasant, and they need support. That is you being there for other people and building that network is why you do that. Not just to enrich your life, but so that when you need to be carried, they carry you for a little while. That's really important and a really valuable part of being at a staff position in a full time job in a place that you feel validated and appreciated and you have coworkers. I always say, like, God, don't go be a one person at a company, you know what I mean? Especially starting your job. Go work with many people. Meet a bunch of people. Because when this one goes and works over there in ten years, and when this one moves on in 20 years, they're all going to be your future collaborators and your future boss and your future client, and it's like, they're going to hire you. You're going to hire them. So if you limit your exposure earlier in your career, that network is vastly diminished. [00:58:39] Speaker C: That's like, really great point. And that is something that I actually learned a lot during my career life, because when I was at like, I had friends all the know, I had people everywhere. And then when I went to Otfell, I was like, I have teams and everything. And then when I moved back to South Korea, I was like, in terms of work wise, I was getting more opportunities and responsibilities. That's what I was exactly looking for. But at the same time, I really miss the then, you know, like, it's it's like when you actually have it, you don't see how much you have it. And then once you don't have like, you see the value of and so and then I saw the episode that you guys did with Justin Cohen, and then I remember him saying that these are the people, like the people who are in the career, these are the people that you're going to grow altogether. You're going to be working with these people. And I was like, that is so true. And then I feel like when I just graduated SCAD, I feel like I got earlier exposure. And I think I definitely feel grateful that people know my work, know my name. But at the same time, I wish I had that exposure when I was a bit older, when I had a bit of experiences, because there are certain things that, oh, I wish I had done differently. So that is so important. So that is the thing that I wish I had known when I was at school. [01:00:29] Speaker A: I think it's one of the things I always say to Shaw, like, God, if I were that age now, listening to us, would I even know what we're like? I do think to a certain extent, you have to experience it, you know what I mean? Experience it to know how important it is. It's like losing a sense and then it coming back. When I had COVID, I lost my sense of taste. And then when it came back, I was like, oh, my God, what was life before perspective, right? [01:01:07] Speaker B: There's only one way to get it. I mean, that's one thing I do like to ask people. Even I'll do it with my seniors. I'll have a senior come and visit the class full of sophomores, and I'll be like, hey, what do you wish you knew two years ago? Right. Because it is that kind of perspective. But I think it is something that only happens or that you really appreciate it through having lived it. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I still feel very appreciated that I knew this in my early 30s. I'm like, okay, well, let's compensate that. At least I know now, and I value that. And then I think my another question is for both of you that because I don't have kids or nor married, do you think that perspective has impacted your career? Were you able to see new perspectives for Erin giving direction to people? Because now that you have daughter, maybe, I don't know, some new perspective, and Shaw has two kids, and is that helpful when you're teaching students? [01:02:19] Speaker A: What do you think, Shaw? I'm curious what you're going to say. [01:02:23] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, I was going to say just from one point in sort of this theme, too. I don't know if the fact that having female children has influenced me to really try to advocate for the female students. I mean, I'd like to think I would anyway, but when I'm working or trying to encourage female students in terms of their career or professional preparation and learning how to negotiate and how to really navigate in a way that I don't know, just with their male peers right. That they want them to go out and be able to succeed. I mean, there's definitely thinking about my own kids in the back of my head, too, right. Like, hey, I want you to go out in the world and make it an easier road for them in the future. Right. Like, to be an example. That's true. In terms of just, I think, bigger pictures. It's probably softened me in a lot of ways, having kids. Being a parent. Right. Probably helped me to kind of slow down and appreciate. Yeah, yeah. How about you, Aaron? [01:03:42] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting. I would love to say that creatively, it's inspired me, or something like on that side, but I would say I just as inspired as I was before. If anything, I feel grateful that it hasn't diminished my desire to put creative stuff in the world and to impact the world creatively. The things that have changed about me is I have so much more empathy for people with children because you really can have absolutely no idea until it happens. And the interesting thing is that because we have all collectively done our jobs for so long before, and we're like experts at what we do before we've had children, I think that would be the case for you, Sophie, and definitely the case for you, Austin. When kids come along, they're the new hard thing to figure out. They're where the hard learning curve is. So for like, being at work was like, I'm breathing. I know what I'm doing. I had more confidence I could do it efficiently and quickly. That job is easy, relative. So the stuff at home became the hard new challenge. And so I began to appreciate kind of how much I had put into my career and my work and to building this thing and building it well so that I could focus a little bit extra on that and have it not make everything else fall apart. So I felt really good about that. I do think it's really cool that my little girl comes and sees me directing or sees her mama's name in big film titles and hears that I speak around the world. It's also like my husband stays home and I'm out working. I feel like so much pride in that whole flip flop of how it's supposed to be. She doesn't know a world where mama is not boss. She doesn't for her, every woman is president, and every guy stays home taking care of the kids, you know what I mean? It's going to be surprising to her when she goes to her friend's house and it's the other way around. And I think that's where and how change in the world happens, period. Just show me. Don't tell me. Show me. And so I feel really great about putting that out there and having her become like the second generation of that, you know what I mean? And not have to be the first generation of it. And so that truly where she goes with her life, can become like an actual choice instead of something that she has to just fight to choose for. You know what I mean? I didn't say that very elegantly, but I think you know what I'm saying? Yeah. [01:06:44] Speaker B: I would add one other thing I think that having my kids have helped me with is just to try to see the world a little more through their eyes. Right. It's kind of brought me back to seeing like a kid, right. Where you can get excited about things. It's a tough balance because there's the responsibilities and the financial burden and planning and all that stuff, and that could get really stressful, but just to kind of be with them. And that's something I learned, too, especially when they were little. I think what they needed most was just me being present, my attention, my presence. Yeah. And when I was around to be. [01:07:28] Speaker A: There. [01:07:30] Speaker B: And in turn, being there with them was seeing things a little bit through their eyes and getting back to, I don't know, things being fun and new. And it's a brand new world. [01:07:44] Speaker A: It connects you back to how you felt being exactly to. Jog your memory about sitting on the floor six inches from the TV until you have your kids sitting on the floor in front of the TV. You know what I mean? There's nothing like that feeling in the world or all of that. Just like reading for the first time and counting and you're just like, god, I remember that book when I was a kid. And you're reading it to your kid and you're kind of imagining what they're imagining and then seeing what their preferences are. I mean, it's really a special thing having a kid, but it is just shit ton of work and it is a lot of unknown. And for everything that could go right, things go wrong. And you have to be very patient and prepared, but also open. You have to just be open. [01:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like a lot of times my role I like to think of it as being a caretaker, right? I'm like guiding and I'm taking care, but it's like they're their own people. My kids are actually they're now both teenagers now, so yeah, the little one just turned 13, so it's like older one's going to be 15. And they're their own people, right? And to let them be right? And to let them that's been a big thing for me recently. It's this idea of letting them figure it out for themselves at the same time I'm a caretaker, so it's like, okay, I got to have some guardrails. But letting them be who they are in some ways with students, it's kind of built in because my students now, my kids are not they're going to be this age of my students not too long from now, right? But with my students, there's a fair amount of that's part of the process. I'm letting you figure it out. You mess up, that's fine. You pick yourself up and we figure it out. And to extend that kind of grace to my family of letting them figure it out, that's kind of where I'm at in my life lesson at the moment. I can really bring that back to myself. Like, oh, I give myself permission to figure things out and not be perfect all the time. [01:10:08] Speaker A: I think one of the things that we don't often talk about so we don't really talk about our kids a lot because they're seen as a liability. And I think in an office, you don't want to be seen as a person that's always ducking out early for your kid, you know what I mean? And as a woman, if you talk about your kid all the time, I think you can get the eyeballs. But the thing that we really don't talk about is aging parents and the generation above us. This is a big thing. As you get into your forty s and certainly your 50s, you are dealing with aging parents and the toll that can take on a family. And it's emotional it's financial. There's often a lot of just drama in families around that. These are all real life things that historically, when you hit these stages of life, they become real things that you have to navigate. And again, that's why that network is important. That's why the girlfriend network is important or the friend network is important. Hey, what's going on? My mom has Alzheimer's. Or this is happening. Okay. The network ignites, all the resources start coming your way and it's an important part of life. [01:11:36] Speaker C: Totally. Yeah. And I think if I were to compare myself, the biggest change would be like when I was in my twenty s. Life revolves around me. The world like, oh, I can totally do it. I am me, super confident, but there's no face behind. And then I hit 30 and then I don't know. I think one of the things that really changed my perspective was like, I am part of the world. It's not like world is revolved around me. And then I see it differently. When I look at my parents aging, I see my brother differently, I see the people like collaborators differently. So that's so important. And I think that is why I really love our industry. Because I think our industry has really special connection and then I really like the culture and then how the culture passes along. That is why I think it's all really connected. And then the more I'm happier and then the more I'm growing and mature, like getting mature. I think my work also portrays that. And then the way I communicate, the way I collaborate with people is also changing. I try to be a better listener. I try to really appreciate their time. So I try to be more efficient. So I think it is so all very connected. [01:13:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I think also as I've gotten older, I've erred on the side of clarity instead of worrying about sounding like a bitch or too direct. I think more comes from succinctness and directness than making it flowery because I'm worried about offending somebody. So that's another thing. I think who we are on the inside pretty much stays the same. But how we adapt in our work life definitely comes with maturity and understanding. Like, oh, I was being way too complimentary because I did have a lot of feedback. And now they don't really understand that that feedback is like important feedback. It's not like a suggestion, it's like a mandate. And so that had to evolve my creative director style to be like, okay, thank them for something, but then move into here are the notes. And you follow up them with an email or a slack or something with just as direct and short as possible what the actual notes are. Any questions? So that there's no question that even though there were some compliments in there, that it doesn't change necessarily the meaning of the exchange. That's hard to do because that has to do with self awareness and also potentially coming across as like a jerk or a bitch or whatever word you want to use. But I do think that directness is good because it's saving people's time. It's all the things you said. It comes out of working efficiently and being a good collaborator. The one thing I didn't say about having I talked about moving into having a daughter and how that came about because of a certain age, feeling kind of forced essentially to make a decision about having kids because of how old I was and just like the biology of it. But the thing I didn't touch on with having with actually having a child and a husband and the business and my clients and other family and responsibilities and friendships out there is that there's only so much time in a day, and it feels like everything always needs 100% of you, like all the time. But there is only 100% of you to give. So there are times where things just need more of you and then other things get less of you and that's natural. But it's also important that you don't let that happen all the time. So if I have a couple of days where work is just annihilating me, I just make sure there's a couple of days where that's how I balance it's. Like, what needs my attention is getting my attention. But I do have to shift out of that mode. It can't be like that all the time. And as a result, if I can be finished at four and I could pop home and take my kids for ice cream in a movie, I'm going to do that, you know what I mean? Because I can. And for me, the giving of my time and my presence and just being there is like all she wants. So if I go out of my way to do that a few times, a few times where I'm late and things are kind of fucked up or I'm traveling for a week, that's what I'm hoping will balance out. So that it's not like, oh, well, she was always gone. It's like, oh, yeah, she was gone a lot. But then when she was around, she made extra time for me and we did all these different special things. But what that does mean is I'm tired when I go to bed, I just go to bed hard. But I also know she's five now. Eventually she's going to be 13, 1415, and it'll hopefully still be like, that where she wants me to be around. But this period of time with her is so short, like, I can't let it squeak by. [01:17:18] Speaker B: I feel like that's parenthood. I don't remember the last time not feeling tired. [01:17:23] Speaker A: I always say whenever somebody I know is pregnant, I'm like, just stay home for nine months asleep. That is the only preparation you could possibly give yourself. And the weird thing also about having kids is when you have a child, they literally take everything from you. It starts with your dignity, with how they come into the world, right? They take your dignity, they take your health, they take your energy. They're literally stealing vitamins and nutrients from your body like a parasite. And then they come into the world and they take your sleep and they take your money and they take your energy and they take everything, right? And they literally die if you don't attend to them. You feed them like you're holding them in one hand, and then you're feeding them in the other, right? But then there's a day where all of a sudden they're holding the bottle. Out of nowhere, they're just holding the bottle up. And you have a hand and you get a hand. And that is a big deal. You got a hand, you can scratch your ass. You can take a sip of your own coffee. You could do a lot with this hand. And then eventually they're sitting up and you're like, oh, my God, they're sitting up. They give a little bit of what they took back, and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. And then they give that smile and that little extra something that ignites something in you that you're just like endorphin like crazy, right? And then more and more and more, you get more of yourself back. And I just imagine when she's 20 and I have all of myself back that I can say, okay, go do your thing. I'm going to go do my thing now, too. You know what I mean? And I know it's not like a separation like that, but that's how I think of it. I just remember her coming into the world and feeling like a shell of a person. There was nothing of me left, and it was all here in this little thing that I put into the world. But then I got my hand back and I got my other arm back. And the first time she ever slept through the night, which wasn't until she was like four, I was like, she slept through the night. And the moment she was like, potty trained and I was like, oh, that. [01:19:43] Speaker B: Was a big deal. [01:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:46] Speaker B: No more diapers. [01:19:48] Speaker A: That was like, God, you get these moments where you're just like Tom Brady when 20th Super Bowl, I used to make the joke. [01:20:01] Speaker B: Yeah. That they're like vampires. I would make the joke. It's like they suck your life force away. But now we play Nintendo together. That's pretty fun. Sometimes my kids will make me food. I'm like, oh, thanks. [01:20:17] Speaker A: Appreciate that. [01:20:18] Speaker B: Or I'll be like I'll be working. [01:20:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:21] Speaker B: They'll come to the studio and I'll be like, do you think you can refill my water bottle? And they'll do it. It's amazing. [01:20:28] Speaker A: Oh, my God. This morning I came to say good morning to rocket because yesterday I needed some time, and I was laying with her, and she was kind of getting up, walking around her room, and I was like, oh, I don't have my glasses. And she was like, Be right back. And she went into my room and she got my glasses, and it was like, There she go. There you go. Get my phone. [01:20:56] Speaker B: I send them to art class and they make things. [01:20:59] Speaker A: I love that, right? It's pretty neat. [01:21:02] Speaker B: It's pretty neat. [01:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's interesting. I did want to touch on that because every day you feel like you want to be there doing that, and then when you're there, you're thinking about like, oh, I should be doing this other thing. And so in the early days, it's very hard, but what's also fun is she'll come into the studio after school and she'll BOP around, and people will see me as a real human being. I don't believe in this work life, separation thing. To me, it's all one thing, and that is what it is. So I think people around here really kind of appreciate that. It's not like she's here all the time and there's like a screaming kid running around all the time. But it's nice that she flows into the office and I get to leave early with her, and she just kind of gets it, and she connects it all together, and people here connect it all together, and they kind of get it. Now I get it. I own a company that's a luxury because I could do what I want, but other people bring their kids in too, occasionally. It's really nice when somebody has somebody pop by. Yeah. [01:22:16] Speaker C: What would you advise to female creatives who are in my position? Like, a bit senior and then kind of like transitioning from twenty s to thirty s? [01:22:31] Speaker A: Well, so I think the biggest thing I learned at that point in my life was instead of asking to be something, saying you're it. Because usually if you're a creative director, you've already creative directed probably for a year or two, you know what I mean? You've been naturally leading jobs, offering feedback, mentoring people. So I would say if you're in a position where you are acting in that manner, really, truly, clearly, you have to ask for it. Or just say, like, I am a creative director, I need the title, or I'm moving on to be a creative director officially and paid for it somewhere else. Now, the weird thing is when a person is asking, I want to be a creative director, I want to be a creative director, I want to be a creative director, but they're not doing the actual work to be a creative director. And a lot of that work. I could give you a list of things to do. Okay. Give so and so feedback on their thing. I can give you a list of things that you have to do to be technically considered a creative director. But moving into that role means taking ownership over that role, which means you shouldn't have to be asking anything. You should just be naturally doing that one job. Doing that does not make a creative director. It means you're on your path to being a creative director. So I would say lean into reading the room. And if you do aspire to be a creative director, but you're not at a place that is naturally allowing you to elevate like that, say, hey, can I be on some client calls? I won't participate. I just want to listen. So start giving yourself an opportunity to hear more. Don't feel like you have to speak. Just listen. And then after, when the group is talking about it and they're saying, like, hey, they gave notes and this was that, and you can then engage with those notes on a different level. And if a junior artist is doing something and you're a senior artist on it, you could be like, hey, I don't think that's what the note meant, honey, let's work on that together before we elevate that. You can just start naturally doing those things, because that's a role you take, you're not given. And that's a big thing that I've noticed. People that are constantly asking to be given the title haven't actually done the stuff. Like, they put in time making things, but they haven't put in time writing, and they haven't put in time mentoring, and they haven't put in time doing those other things because they weren't comfortable. They wanted you to kind of teach them how to do those things, but they have to come naturally because there's a difference between doing the thing and leading the thing. They're two totally different skill sets, and one either comes naturally with a little mentorship, or it doesn't come at all. And that's okay. [01:25:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I was going to ask, do you think that creative directing is for everyone? [01:25:51] Speaker A: Oh, my God. Creative directing is not for everybody. Yeah, there's definitely I'd rather pay somebody who executes as a creative director with many, many years of experience, pay them what? I would pay a creative director and have them not be a creative director, then call them a creative director and kind of it's like going from being a fish breathing water to all of a sudden breathing air. Like managing people and looking after other people's careers and listening to what a client says and wants and then kind of bridging the gap between what your eager designer wants that's like hostage negotiation that's no longer designing and animating. That's a totally different role. And it's so interesting because the best creative directors I know have the least amount of ego, but they are like this person that's elevated so high and so typically the ones that I've met that do have so much. Ego and are probably the least successful. Creative directors are just like the people that were really good at what they do and then go off and do the thing that they do with a very specific team that they can really bark orders at and that they've handpicked that work in the style that they want them to work in. And it becomes very of that person, which can be okay, but it's also like that's not a creative director. In a way it is, but not in like, okay, they're going to be running many jobs and have many different teams going and this person's a little sensitive. So they're working with them in a slightly different way than they're working with this person. This client's a fucking maniac. So how are they dealing with them and how are they protecting their team from that? [01:27:46] Speaker B: So it's like more forced than flowing. [01:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, complete it. I'll just keep talking for an hour and you're like two words. [01:27:58] Speaker C: But going back to credit director because I haven't created directed the client project, but I'm art directed and closely always working with the creative director, right? And then I think one of the pros of being a freelancer is I got to work with different creative directors. But I totally agree with you that the creative director who are so humble and then no ego and just really focusing on the job and then helping me to understand what he's envisioning, what the client wants, I feel like, oh, this creative director is prepared and then he's really trusting me. But as a freelancer, I feel like I learn to adapt to work with different teams and different creative directors. [01:28:50] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting as a freelancer, moving from art director to creative director is going to be less clear unless you just want to start calling yourself a creative director. But the difference between an art director and a creative director on paper and in reality is as a creative director, you're managing the client and you're managing your team of art directors and makers, like beneath you. And that could be a team of couple, but it could also be like a team of dozens. And so you're not necessarily navigating budgets or anything like that because that's probably set up before you get in the mix with when the job is bid and all of that. And you'll hopefully have a producer working alongside you that see, that's the relationship that's not often talked about, but the creative director producer relationship is Shlomiel Schlamazzle Lover and Shirley. They complete each other because usually, first of all, the producers talking to the producer at the agency or the client and they're talking about what all the creatives want. So you have to make sure your producer kind of knows what you want and you have to be strategic about how you're going to get there. And so being freelance, it's hard to develop that relationship because that comes over times of many times of working with them on a job. It's not that it can't be done, but I would strongly suggest anybody looking to transition to being a freelance creative director whenever they get their jobs, just sit down and have like an hour long conversation with the producer. Get to know them, especially if it's remote. Like, really what's going on in your life, in your family, what's going on? Because here's what's going on in my life and my family. You're going to need to know each other so that when that person is not answering an email and you can sense the producer on the other side freaking out, you can just pop in and say, oh, I know so and so is on a call right now, but I can drop these notes in and we can get started on them. And that's not something that would really be stepping out of line. But it's also great that you could have that pre talk with each other and just kind of know where each other are at about doing things like that and just having a certain flow because that's not like I would never write back for my producer. I always like, they are the voice on the job, but I will also, after they write back, I might be like, yes, and I fully support her. You know what I mean? Just to be like, she's not just saying this. Like, we obviously talked about it and I'm excited about it and thank you so much, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's really kind of developing that dynamic. That's super important. But I mean, really, just to the point of your question, if it's time for you to move on to be creative director, just put art Director creative Director on your website. Create two different rate structures for yourself. If you're going to be creative director, you're going to carry more responsibility, you're going to take less. You're obviously not going to take any other jobs while it's going on, things like that. If you're creative directing a job, you might want, like a longer term commitment. Might not just be like a week, maybe it's a month, maybe it's two months, so that you can really see a job through to completion. You might want to know more about the job before you take it. You might want to meet the producer that you'll be collaborating with, things like that. I think if somebody said those things to our studio when they were coming in and saying like, hey, I'm a creative director, I'm available on freelance, if we ping them to say, hey, are you available? I would ask those things and say, hey, but I'd love to have a conversation with whoever is going to be producing the job and kind of get on the same page with them and really meet them. I would be to the moon and back. Like, to the moon and back. [01:32:51] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I did have the pressure of like, oh, should I move to create? Should I aim to be a creative director? But at the moment, I think I fell in love with genuine music making craft and be good at it. And sometimes I know being in a leadership position is a lot of responsibility and because I know that I want to take that a little slower and then make sure that I can learn my craft really well, kind of like learning my skills better. [01:33:33] Speaker A: So you have your four client work, which you're the maker on your art, directing your leading teams, more hands on, but then you also do some of your own projects and for those you're the director creative director on. So there could be times where clients come to you directly, not through a motion design studio or not through an agency, but maybe it's just direct with client. However, where they find you, because you do have such a presence out there. Like people know who you are. You could just start taking work that way too. [01:34:11] Speaker C: How do you try and send out so much great work is out there now and I'm really curious about it because I am such a perfectionist and I'm sure all the creatives are like that. So I feel so much pressure to put my work out there, especially now that I've been working. When I was a student, I was pretty oblivious, like, here's my work. But then as a studio owner and just working in the creative industry for a while, what's your secret stuff? [01:34:44] Speaker A: Oh God, it's so hard. Right. For me, I try to create a place where we have a diverse client base. I like to think high level design work. It's just some of it are for pharma clients. And so you do some work, of course, to do a great job for your client and to create a really great relationship with them. But it's also going to create a good living. Like you're going to make a lot of money and it's going to pay the bills and it's going to create stability. And then sometimes you chase work that is because it's beautiful. It's an art piece, like a conference main title. You can do whatever you want, they let you do whatever you want. Usually you can define the theme, you'll go, you'll speak about it. So that's a situation where you can get really experimental and not have clients. You could do whatever you want, but those are self funded. Nobody is giving you money. But you do get all the creative control and those are a really great way of kind of creating things to stand out, especially amongst your peers. But then they're standing out for potential future clients and that work can work well too. But I found for me, the thing that tends to work the best the long term is main titles. They're highly visible and if they're on a hit show, they become part of the cultural conversation. Like when we did the title sequence for Peacemaker with that dance sequence and the really cool type, it is all people we're talking about for months and months and months. And hopefully when Peacemaker comes back, we contribute on that as well and we level it up. So for me, it's about creating work that's highly visible out there in the world, that's brief, driven. So it's for clients, it's for real deal television shows and films. Now. Sometimes you think you're going to do the best title sequence and it's a good show and it's the secret sauce and you got it all out there, but sometimes the shows just don't hit and for whatever reason it didn't go noticed. Or maybe something happened with the lead actor and he wound up being a gross, disgusting person in the world and you can never put that on your reel again. Like crazy things happen. So a lot of stars have to align for a show to become like a hit and become a cultural moment. And in that case, the work needs to be really great, really good. But I think the context of it also is what makes it great. You know what I mean? Our work on Community, that was a fun title sequence. It was a really great show. It was a funny show, a humor show, which often don't have the best main titles, you know what I mean? Usually they're kind of a little junkie and I think we did a really beautiful job, especially at the time with the CG and all that stuff. But is it like frame for frame? Like a perfect piece? No, there's a million things I want to change about it. But it was the perfect idea for that show at that time. And that show was like a sleeper hit. It went on for a few seasons and then it kind of continued to go on. And now it's like on Netflix and people love it and people talk about it all the time and it's kind of a part of this cultural lexicon, like ten years, ten years later. So at the time you would have never guessed it, but for me it's been taking the gamble and doing those main title sequences because knowing like one in 20 is going to hit and be cool. That Brooklyn Nine Nine main title that we did, that cheesy one with the frozen moments that struck too. People call us about that all the time and they're like, we saw tutorials people made after Effects tutorials on how to recreate the Brooklyn Nine main title. It's just like a really weird, interesting thing that happens out in the world and that was just like some cheesy thing and was made to look not that well crafted, like on purpose. It was like intentional for the humor of it. So you're like, God, that's what's going to hit. The type is kind of not right and. It's frozen on a weird off frame. But I think those imperfections and the context of it being on that show with the right music really makes it stand out. Yeah. [01:39:45] Speaker C: So you're saying that you first focus on a client's needs and then be creative from that. [01:39:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So we'll get the brief or see the show and we build from that. And so we're not so much focused on doing something in a look. Like we don't have a studio look. We really are very brief, driven, and we think about what's exactly right for community, what's right for Brooklyn Nine Nine. And then we hope that the secret sauce of it being a visible show, hitting right with the audience, all of that kind of comes together to make it give it longevity. [01:40:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And you're right. In order for the job, like, the work to be exposed or I think there needs to be a bit of luck as well. [01:40:34] Speaker A: Completely. I mean, think about all the things you see that are stunning. I think about that all the time. When I'm scrolling through Instagram, I'm like, God, that must have taken forever to make goodbye. You know what I mean? Like, oh, my God. I guess I fear just being that was cool. You need to see me every week when you sit down and watch your show. Maybe that's where my ego is, is in the visibility. I don't care about me, but the work. I want people to see the work, and I want it to affect how they look at the next thing they look at and say, oh, that was not as good as that. Or us getting a call two years later to be like, hey, you know that thing you did? Can you do something like that for this for this brand or for this thing? Because then you could feel the work kind of spreading and growing and becoming bigger, becoming more. [01:41:34] Speaker B: That's where it brings the archival versus disposable conversation. Right? Like, some of the work is meant to just, oh, that's cool. And then you just keep going, oh, that's cool. [01:41:47] Speaker A: I need those shoes. [01:41:49] Speaker B: And then some of it sticks, and it sticks around. Like you said, you watch it every week when the show comes out, right. [01:42:00] Speaker C: This is not part of the question, but now that we're talking about it, because sometimes I'm also a digital content creator, right? Do you feel like because our work is so digital driven, do you feel like, oh, the work is disposable? Do you find meaning behind? Or how do you keep the excitement? Because sometimes when I look at the real art piece, like a painting in the museum and all that stuff, sometimes I wonder my work is digital. Sometimes I feel like, what if it's meaningless? [01:42:39] Speaker A: I definitely don't think our work is meaningless, but I think the meaning that we have maybe prescribed to it is different than what it is. So most of our work is for commercial gain. So it is to achieve some sort of objective from our clients. So maybe it's to sell more shoes. Maybe it's to gain visibility. Maybe it's to create brand awareness. Maybe it's to talk about a clause and to create a platform for people, blah, blah, blah. There's, like, a lot of reasons we create the things we create, and those are really important things. Those things historically are disposable because once they sell those shoes, they're going to want to do a new campaign for the new kind of shoe that they got out, because they're going to want to one up where they were at and evolve where they were at. And that is commerce. That is how things move. I think there was a time where commercials were more archival because there were just less of them, there were less networks. People spent a lot more money and labored a lot over them more. Not that the work isn't as hard to do. It's just that maybe it's a little easier to do, but it's also just I don't know. I think ads just ran a lot longer. Austin am crazy. [01:44:02] Speaker B: Well, I'm thinking back, I was going to say my thoughts were that I wouldn't say that the disposable nature of commercial art is limited to digital. Because I think about one of my early mentors who print, right? Like pre digital, everything is print or broadcast. I remember my mentor being like, people read a newspaper, there's the ad. Boom, it goes in the trash. Well, back then, in the trash, hopefully now. So I think it's pretty disposable by its nature of but I don't think it's digital art. [01:44:40] Speaker A: I think a digital is just a medium. [01:44:45] Speaker B: Exactly. Maybe everything is a bit faster, right. And there's more of it, and there's more platforms. So maybe it is the speed of how disposable it is, maybe is picked up. But I think graphic design, by its nature, if it's done in a commercial context, is often yeah, it turns over. And I think about a lot of the client work I do that if it's retail or fashion, it is seasonal. Right. It does change. But then I think about a piece like The I Love New York. The I Heart New York by Milton Glazer. Like, sometimes things become real archival, and I think it's going back to what we were discussing earlier. Sometimes it's just luck. It's the right piece at the right time, and it hits the nerve and it sticks. [01:45:42] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. But I think print and painting, I think it's all digital art. [01:45:52] Speaker C: To me. [01:45:53] Speaker A: It's all art. You know what I mean? I don't feel like that there's anything more or less disposable. I think what it's for, maybe the. [01:46:02] Speaker B: Intention is what makes it last or not. And a lot of it isn't meant to last. [01:46:08] Speaker A: The point I wanted to make is that as an industry, we made things a little more archival. It's this newer generation of the industry, and I just think about this all the time, because on our website, we don't have all of our work. We don't even have all of our really great portfolio work that we show as we keep our site pretty trimmed down to just the stuff we want to show very strategically, and our competitors do the same. But I think a lot about the early days when we were coming up, we put everything on our websites, we put our archive of content of the things that we made on our website. And you know that if you were looking for that Bombay Sapphire spot that Psyop did, you could go to their website and it would have but, like, first of all, Psyop's been around forever. There's no way that that spot is on their website. Maybe it is, but probably not, right? Like brand new school. Think about all the stuff Brand New School did back in the day. There's no way any of that stuff is on their website because it doesn't necessarily represent them right now in this moment. So where is all of stash did a pretty good job, but they're a little less visible these days. But they used to have this DVD and they still do kind of like how Art of the Title does their top ten. They do their top spots of the year. But there was something special about getting that DVD and being included on the DVD, and it made the stuff for us archival. And I think with Motionographer where it's at, and there's just, like, no spot anymore where things are like, wow, my stuff's in that. And us as companies, we've kind of allowed that to kind of fizzle out for just, like, what's hot that day, what's trending? Kind of crazy. [01:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I think the only other thing that makes me think about bringing it back to just the intention of what goes into an installation or a museum, the intention is just really different, I think. And I do know that MoMA, they showcase really breakthrough pieces of design, but I don't think it's necessarily what the purpose is a lot of the time. Right. It's help move messages and persuade people to buy things, do things. [01:48:55] Speaker C: Another question would be overturning stereotypes while communicating with male coworkers. And I'm sure I mean, like, you're a studio owner, so it's probably different, but would you be able to share the experience when you are stuck and then moving to the director and how do you communicate with them and then before kind of like, in comparison? [01:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, this is an interesting one, overcoming stereotypes while communicating with male coworkers. So I didn't really give much thought to this as I was kind of coming up in the industry. And when I look back on that, that was probably I wish I was more self aware because I would have worked harder at it. I think I was pretty dismissive when I was dismissed. Yeah. So I didn't really put a lot of effort into joining their hobbies and their kind of outings. Like, they would play video games together, and I was not interested in that. They go paintballing, and I was just not interested in that. And I don't know. I don't know that I would do anything different, but I think I would have maybe tried to make more of an effort connecting with them. In a group mentality, I think I was always more focused on one on one than in general. I think I'm better one on one. But I think guys, they called them Mo Bros for a reason. It's because they kind of traveled in packs, and I think being outside of the pack definitely did not help with furthering my career, although I did okay, but certainly not at those places. I was always for sure an outsider, and I've never had a female boss well, not in motion design anyway. Certainly, like, coming from having other types of jobs, but never in motion design. I never had a female creative lead or a female boss or any kind of woman in any kind of seniority around me. So I guess it was pretty lonely, and I didn't really have a person to ask, like, hey, is this weird or not, right? But I did once have a boss listen in on a call I had with a client. I was leading a job, and they listened into the call, and after the call, they said I did a really good job, but then I did this thing with my voice where at the end of the sentence, my voice would go up, which made me sound like a little girl asking her daddy for permission. And I don't remember a lot. I have a very gauzy type memory, but I remember that, and I just remember being like, oh, yeah, thank you for the feedback. One, I was surprised they listened in on the call without letting me know, let alone asking my permission, but letting me know. And then second, I was very surprised to be getting feedback like that because I remember thinking, like, well, isn't it a good thing doing that with my voice, like, asking a client what they think with my inflection? Why is that a bad thing? And then, like, wow, how dare this person, how dare he say that I sounded like a little girl asking daddy for permission? It was a female client. Perhaps this was like a good learning moment for him to kind of maybe see how it was done to have empathy for a client and to ask. But I was not old enough, and I definitely wasn't empowered enough to say anything. And so I think for me, where that leads me now is to just say I just try to be really open minded with my team and try not to step out of bounds in any way. And am just more mindful and try and create for space for others that don't look and talk and walk and do all the things like I do. And I have to say, it's really interesting having this group of people. I look around and I see all these guys, like these typical white guys, right, that are so talented in their craft, but they have a lady boss. They got a lady that can come over their shoulder and just kind of nitpick at what they're working on. And that takes a special kind of guy, you know what I mean? And I just feel really grateful that there has been so much evolution, because I think I have kind of what I've always wanted to be, a creative lead, but I think I had to create my own place to attract the right kind of people that could be right. Like, if you take that step back, I was never going to have that at that place. And I did not realize it. I would always think, like, God, did they miss out? Because I could have done all of this here for them. I could have made all of this for them, and I would have been so happy to do that. But I think the real reality is I couldn't because they couldn't handle it. And the people they attracted toward their organization could not take having a woman leader within that organization because of who they attracted in and the bravado that was running through the organization and was obviously supported and encouraged, if not directly, obviously. What is that saying? It's not overtly? Yeah, not overtly. I don't think they would ever see themselves as being a sexist organization. [01:54:57] Speaker B: It was implicit not explicit, right? [01:55:04] Speaker A: I wish now I look back at that and I wish I would have just been like, okay, so I guess I quit. Fuck you. Also from my lawyer for saying that shit to me in addition to other things. But that's just, like, not how I was wired. It took me a long time after that to really see what I was dealing with. And once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it, and I left. I was just, like, bounce, you know what I mean? And I think that's in terms of overcoming stereotypes and communicating, I feel like the bigger thing is if you feel like you can't pack up your shit as quickly as possible and go, it just might not be your people, you know what I mean? And if they're not your people, why are you giving them your time and talent? Now, I'm not certainly advocating, like, you just up and quit your fucking job. Get yourself set up, build your wheel, do what you need to do. Start looking, but just get this idea out of your head that this is your forever place, because it is not your forever place. [01:56:05] Speaker B: How can a male educator. Help empower female design students. [01:56:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Get them used to talking. [01:56:16] Speaker C: Right on. Try to be like a good listener, I think, because you've never lived in female body and then you've been living your whole life as male. Right. So sometimes I think it's better to just listen to them, giving them a space to talk and then understand and then learning. I'm here to also learn through what you're saying. And I also say to my brother that, yeah, if you really want to understand female, or that's not like male experience different, just give them more space and then talk more like what Erin said. Because through their speech, through their conversation, you get more information to add more. [01:57:17] Speaker A: To that, I think is some women, for sure don't have problem talking, but I think for others, they don't necessarily feel it's more like talking. On top of somebody, which you'd never want to talk on top of somebody, but it's respectfully disagreeing or yeah, budding, you know what I mean? I feel like it would be also to give contrasting just thoughts and ideas around a thing. I feel like we're so used to saying, just agreeing to make it easier for people. Also a thing I did and try very hard not to do is to apologize before I give what I know is going to be hard feedback. So if you kind of sense somebody doing that, it's not good to mansplain. But if somebody was like, oh, sorry. But you don't have to apologize for having an opinion. You can just have your opinion. I think it's okay to kind of, especially as an educator, let somebody know there's nothing to be apologetic about. You're here to express your thoughts and opinions, please do so. We are curious. So it's like finding those little things that we do to kind of ease everybody else because we're about to speak. I think you can say, oh, you don't have to apologize for apologize for being late. Don't apologize for having a thought when I just asked you your opinion. Things like that kind of crazy, right? It's kind of crazy. I was thinking the other day I was doing it, I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. But I don't know, I just kind of prefer it. And I'm like, I'm not sorry that's my job is to have an opinion and to share it with you. Thank you for asking me my opinion. My opinion is this it should be more that, thank you for doing your job so I could do my job. [01:59:31] Speaker C: Yeah, in that sense, I'm really glad that I was able to experience different cultures during my 20s because I just had no idea when I was applying internship, someone replied, oh, you look like some actresses, or you just really inappropriate. When I was in my early twenty s and now that I'm thinking back, I'm like, that was so inappropriate. But I didn't even catch that, right? Because I was just so oblivious. Yeah. Or like someone said, I don't know. I'm not really good at recalling old memories. But I do remember a couple of things that, now that I think about it, that was really inappropriate. So when I was working at internship or studio, I was just habitually saying, oh, I'm so sorry, because I was afraid that I would make mistake or not make the work easier. But I've seen how white female react to the same a certain environment or situation or Latin females or like. [02:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:00:54] Speaker C: They were so different. But I was able to experience and then saw it really closely. And I was also living with two Latina girls, I think. Savannah, Greta and Nabila. And then they're like, no, Sophie, you don't know. You have to say it. They were very confident and they were not even hesitate to say things that I felt like I'm not sure if I could say it, but they're like, no, you have to say and I think those experiences really helped me to be independent, like working independently. But I can totally understand that some people have being a really hard time to communicating with males or especially at work or even at school. I had a bit of hard time presenting the class at school, so my voice would be like, almost like mosquito. You can barely hear what I'm saying. Yeah. So I think those experiences were I. [02:01:57] Speaker A: Think another trait is like, guys don't hesitate to talk over you. You could be talking and then all of a sudden the guy can insert and just kind of just railroad right over you. And I think, like, you can't stop that from happening, but what you can do is say, like, okay, well, I don't think Teresa was done speaking, so we're going back to her. So it's like an opportunity to be like, okay, you've made your point, but now let's go back to the actual person that had the fucking table. And that's a good opportunity for both people to kind of learn, like, quorum a little bit. [02:02:38] Speaker B: No, I've actually had to do that. I've had to do that on occasion. I've gotten better at it too. [02:02:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's hard in the moment to catch these things. It's so hard because you're there to teach design. You're not there to teach people how to necessarily treat each other. But that does get into a professional practices kind of paradigm and also just like a way of operating your space around you. And in our studio, we've had to talk to a few people a couple of times like, hey, you're excited. But it's real dismissive when you do that. You got to chill. It's hard to have those conversations, but you absolutely have to. [02:03:22] Speaker B: No, it's tough because sometimes it is. Sometimes it's the person's just excited and they're jumping it and you don't want to squash them, but you do want them to be like, hey, so and so was talking. Let them finish. And I've seen it and I've done that and then I've seen that person where those people will actually catch themselves and let other people go. [02:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:03:51] Speaker B: It is being of service. [02:03:52] Speaker A: You are one of those people that just has an idea and they can't wait to get it out because I actually do cut people, they're talking. And I've had to learn to stop doing that, which is so not a female trait, but it is super rude. And I hope people realize I'm doing it out of excitement, as like, yeah, but I'll always have paper and pen because I'm always also worried I'm going to forget what this brilliant thing that I was going to say. And I'll start writing it down. I'll write it down and you realize had you just waited a breath, that person was getting there anyway, and then you go, yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking exactly the same thing and then it's a different way of connecting with the person or oh wow, you went there but I was going to go left. But you inspired this idea, you know what I mean? It's just nice. So I do always keep pen and paper just so that I can help kind of control that talking over people impulse. [02:04:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm really learning a lot through this conversation because I've been growing so much for the past five years that I'm really trying to learn other side of life. And I'm not ashamed to say in a really honest way that I really lack of these skills or understanding because my life focus has been so much about growing career and getting a job and just keep continuing that. So this is so valid and just being understanding where this person is coming from and also have to make sure that I'm not giving too much attention so that they would feel also like that's too much. But I also have to read that in the room. Like, what's divine? What's this person like, am I too much like showing the energy? It's really hard. [02:05:51] Speaker A: It is a lot of reading the room. Yeah, it is a lot of reading the room. And that gets into the skills of a creative director versus I just need to make the thing. I don't want to have to deal with all these crazy people. [02:06:03] Speaker B: I think that happens a lot. I mean, I think of course it happens as an educator, like I have to do that constantly. But it is that. And it's funny because as you guys are talking, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm totally I call it like being a blurter. I blurt. I get excited and I blurt and I've gotten much better at it. But when you're the professor, nobody's going to stop me from blurting, right? I have to be the one to do it. But I like discussions and sometimes there's so many different personalities. And there's the person that's like, okay, you've said enough, let's go to the next person. And the next person who just says two words and it's like, can you say a little more? Or like, could you please speak up? And I think I learned how to do that in a way that's just trying to not shame anybody, but yeah, to be playful. And they keep it as just part of that process. But it is like, to some extent, I guess, modeling. It modeling what we're looking for in a discussion and hearing people's thoughts. [02:07:13] Speaker C: How to develop an accurate sense of self, which is like medical mission. And I'm sure as a creative director, when you are looking for resources, you are constantly going through different portfolios. And I'm sure you can tell, can this person really do this or is it just some portfolio, like what is going on? And I think this could be really helpful for junior designer or students, just be true with their skills. Although it could be a scary thing, just be honest about what you're capable of and what you're not. So I thought I would bring up this topic like medical mission and how we could be through with our skills and what we are capable of. [02:08:07] Speaker A: So that's for an artist sharing their portfolio, how they can. So if I'm a junior designer, I'm not coming in thinking that I'm a creative director or explain this to me a little bit more. [02:08:23] Speaker C: Yeah, so basically, how to develop an after, a sense of self, like for junior designer or like a student. Because as I'm going senior, I think I know what I'm capable of and what I'm not. But when I was like students and when I was just starting my career, I felt like, oh, I know how to make this pretty. But within the timeline, I'm not really sure. So that's not accurate. So how would you advise? [02:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's an interesting thing because I think that seniority has less to do with talent than it does that, than it does to do with experience. And I think it leans into this idea of medic cognition. I love the title because when you're a junior artist, you'll know, you'll get there, you have confidence in your skills and you know you can create and make things, but you don't necessarily know that it's going to take you a week to do it and not 4 hours, which is what you have. And you don't necessarily know that you're going to have to watch like six tutorials and ask all the people around you for tips and tricks on how to get there, on your path to get there. You have the confidence to do it, you have the skills to get there, but you don't necessarily have the understanding of what it's fully going to take. And so as you get experience and you go through these things over and over and over again. And you start realizing like, oh, this takes this, and it's going to require that. And then you start mentoring other people and saying like, oh, here, why don't just start the journey here when you get to this point, I'll show you what to do. Once you start breaking it down for then into kind of teacher mode and mentor mode, you just get more self aware. You have conversations with your creative leads and your producers where you're like, okay, I can get you this by noon. But all of those versions, that's going to take a whole day. Don't promise that to the client because I'm going to have to check the renders. We've been having an issue with The Farm and something's up with this, blah, blah, blah. They're going to know all these little things that only a person that has been through it a million times in the environment is going to know, and that only comes from experience. There are some things you can only learn with experience that talent has absolutely nothing to do with. Right? Like, I have senior producers here that just know what it's going to take, and they've never done it, but they have. They've watched it be done by 15 junior people a million times and 15 senior people a million times. And what if this one person that just knows what they're doing does it? Oh, then I could have it done in a day for you. They just know because that's the difference between a senior producer and an associate producer just starting out in their career. And that's why it really grinds my gears, which is one of my favorite things, grinds my years. When you have a young person come in that's a junior designer and in a year they want to be a senior designer, that's just not possible. It's just not because you couldn't have worked the hours it's going to take. If I worked you day and night for a full year, there is no way you could be a senior designer. Yes, your design is good, yes, you are talented, but you are not a senior designer because I cannot trust you to tell me how long things are going to take and to communicate with your collaborators and to save your files where they need to be saved. And there's all these other things that go along with being a senior artist that has to do. And even if you do everything great, you've only done it for a year. You are not a senior designer. It's so hard, I think, for people that are used to leveling up so quickly and moving through the ranks and learning so fast that they come into the world and things go into slow motion a little bit. But that's really what it is. It just takes time and experience of going through it and doing it a million times right, and also a few times wrong. Because those wrong ones are going to teach you a lot more than the. [02:12:52] Speaker B: Right ones are going to maybe more than a few. [02:12:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, yeah. Those things that you fuck up, you're never going to forget. [02:13:05] Speaker B: I was going to say, I think I can speak to this a little bit too. This idea, this sense of accurate, really, it's a sense of appraisal across a couple of different areas, whether it's scope, just being able to look at a brief and assess, okay, what's going into this? What exactly needs to happen here? And I see it from the students, from even an introductory level class, and I've gotten them where we really dial it into, like, okay, we're going to real bite size exercises where it's just like a very small ask. In a short amount of time. And then slowly, over time, they start developing a sense of like, oh, how long it's actually going to take? Because they get a huge idea, and it's like, yeah, that's not going to happen in the amount of time that I'm giving you. Right. And then in terms of profession, that's where students graduating into the workforce, where I'm like, look, you got to make enough money to eat and to live and to not be taken advantage of. But I'm like, it's okay to have a junior rate to start out. What that means is that you've got junior expectations, and that's a lot less pressure. Now, I know for me, I can speak from my experience. I didn't have that sense. I had senior expectations of myself when I was really a junior artist, and I put way too much responsibility on myself, and I get too stressed. And I think I did myself somewhat of a disservice, although that helped me later to be able to, you know, you're a junior. It's okay to be a know. To echo what Aaron said, it's years and years of practice that I'm able to like. And I also know when a client comes and says, hey, I have a project. What's it going to cost? Build an estimate. I'm like, well, there's some information I need, I need to know what is it that you're asking for? What's the length? What's the aesthetic? Early on, I didn't even know I needed all those things. I didn't have that list of, well, I can't tell you accurately unless you give me certain information. I was just kind of like, okay, we'll figure it out. And that's probably where a lot of my mistakes and stress came from. Right. But perspective comes from experience and from doing it a lot of times. [02:15:47] Speaker C: Yeah. That was, like, really good question. Yeah. So I think we can move into the dinner. [02:15:53] Speaker B: Good job. Sophie, good question. [02:15:56] Speaker A: We agree it was a great question. I feel like we're learning a lot about you from your questions. Your questions. So insightful. Yeah. [02:16:10] Speaker B: Sophie was a student who know. I'd be like, okay, we're going to do ideation exercises. I'm just trying to get the students to do some free writing and maybe do a little writing, make a mind map and then do a mood board. Sophie's like, I researched, like, four scholarly articles and I've cross referenced them, and. [02:16:31] Speaker A: I'm like, Whoa, all right, talk about it. You know what? [02:16:37] Speaker C: The more I'm working in the industry, besides drawing and making work, there are things that I'm starting to finding out about myself, is that I am really curious about people. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I'm really curious about people. So I'm trying to take advantage of this time to get to know Erin. And I think this is really valid. Again, it's so unique, and I would really love to see more female lead in our industry more and more. So I'm just really trying to squeeze. [02:17:13] Speaker A: All the juice out of it. [02:17:17] Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah. [02:17:22] Speaker A: And this is just my experience. There's no right or wrong to any of this. There's plenty of ways to do something. [02:17:31] Speaker C: Erin said that you went through a. [02:17:33] Speaker B: Recession multiple, multiple times. 1st, 1911. That was a bad one, right? Then the housing crash. Eight, nine. Then we had a little thing called the pandemic. Right. [02:17:54] Speaker A: Here we are. [02:17:55] Speaker B: And I think we're sort of maybe there's something happening right now. [02:17:58] Speaker A: It seems like some uncertainty in the world. Yeah, well, interest rates are going way up, and that's a sign that things are I'm not an economist. Again. [02:18:15] Speaker B: We see the ripples, right? Things. [02:18:18] Speaker A: You can see things happening. I mean, just look what's happening in tech. That's all you need to see in banking anyway. [02:18:28] Speaker C: Generally, specialists. And I think it would be really great if you could advise for junior designer and for seniors, because I feel like for me, every three years, I was desiring to, okay, what's the next step? Kind of like thinking about that moment. So I think it would be great to hear that from you. [02:18:52] Speaker A: Well, I think from the studio owner perspective, we prefer generalists. We love a strong designer, graphic designer that knows how to animate, for sure. 2d, it would be great if they did not fear 3D, if they were willing to play around in it and get into it, because everything is kind of like an amalgamation of all the things. So from an employability perspective, that kind of traditional career trajectory of designer, animator, senior, this, that, creative director, blah, blah, generalist feels like generally the way it goes. Now, there are a few rare occasions where I would say that person is a specialist at heart. And that's when it's like they use their art as where their art is. Just every once in a while, there's a brief out there that their art will satisfy and make the brief just sing. And I feel like those are the moments we crave working with this specialist, the person that can do this thing, and only this one person can do the thing and they agreed to do it with us. And we're going to learn so much about them and their process and it's going to not just be like a job, but like an experience. And it's going to be awesome. There's going to be collaboration and learning and all that. So the problem is that there's less jobs for the specialist historically in a studio like mine. So I can't necessarily have them on full time unless they want to work as a generalist. And then every once in a while I can sell through something that's like a specialist kind of thing that they do only. But I do think the world has gotten a lot smaller with the internet, with the ability to market oneself. So I would say if somebody has specialist tendencies that has a unique point of view that only they can do or has a handle on software, like if they're like a houdini expert that does this one kind of blue, like go forth because there's just not a lot of people like that. And if that's the thing that you do, go do it. And make sure you're also marketing yourself. And not just doing the thing in a vacuum, but doing the thing and getting it out there and putting it out there and being a bit of a self promoter so that you can be consistently working if you want to be or selling. Yeah, I'm a generalist that perhaps wishes they had been a specialist and then I'm sure there are specialists that of course wish they were more generalized so that they had more different opportunities. But yeah, I think there's always like moments of grass is greener. It's lovely when a specialist has a little bit of flexibility. They aren't such an artiste, especially if they're in the commercial world because like I said, there's a lot of no's no's meaning notes. They're not necessarily bad things either. Notes notes can actually inform the process and make it better. But if you come in with the mentality of like, I'm the specialist, I know this is let me do the thing I know how to do, but then also assume that the client doesn't know their product and their audience. That's again, very close minded and different. So I think the beauty happens when both of those kind of people meet and there's just sharing of information, like, hey, but actually our clients are a little bit older and oh, interesting. Then let me or our clients all seem to have triplets and kids because they're having kids older with like well, anyway, so then your illustrations can start to represent that and it can be even more impactful to me. [02:22:48] Speaker B: I feel like motion design itself is somewhat of a generalist discipline just because it is like lots of different disciplines overlapping. I also think the human species is really generalist, like anthropology wise. We're very much this scrappy, scavenger hunter gatherer through evolution and that there were other hominid cousins that were very specialized that aren't here anymore. So I think that that lesson is that as the environment changes, as the industry media landscape changes, generalists do pretty well at adapting. Having said all that, I feel like it would be cruel to force someone who's not a generalist to try to be that. Right. Like, if you're a specialist, be a specialist. If you're a generalist, be a generalist. You got to be who you are. I think for myself to force that. [02:23:45] Speaker A: I'm seeing I'm talking over you, but as somebody that's tried to kind of force a move like that to be like, okay, they're really good at this, or if we just kind of give them other stuff, they'll be okay, because when they do this thing, they're really good at this thing, it does not work. Right. [02:24:01] Speaker B: And I think that specialists tend to go more into VFX, because I think they do really well there because it's focused or one or single style illustrators. You know what I mean? Go deep into that. To me, those are specialists. All right. [02:24:18] Speaker A: Should we wrap it? Yeah. This has been amazing. [02:24:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. I know it's getting late over there. Yeah. But this was really helpful, and hopefully the audiences have the same opinion about our podcast. [02:24:37] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we can ask them, and they can tell us. [02:24:39] Speaker B: Thank you, Sophie. [02:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [02:24:42] Speaker B: Sharing your time. It's always fun to get to hang out and talk to an alum, and really, always, I think for me, it's always gratifying, too, to see you all out there in the world doing your thing. I don't know. What am I trying to say right now? I think I'm trying to give, like, praise. I've realized I tried to do this the other day in class. I tried to give the students praise. I was like, I'm not good at giving praise, so you're just going to have to bear with me. But no, I'm very proud and glad to see you out in the world and succeed. [02:25:23] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing your time with us. Really thoughtful questions there. [02:25:31] Speaker C: Yeah. Hopefully I could reach out to you again individually, Erin. Yeah. And when I visit the States, I would love. Yeah. Or, like, in a conference. [02:25:45] Speaker A: And if I'm ever over there, even close to South Korea, I will stop by. [02:25:51] Speaker C: Yes. [02:25:53] Speaker A: Let's do a road trip. [02:25:54] Speaker B: Let's do a road trip to South Korea. Sure. We can we'll figure it out. [02:26:01] Speaker A: I'm confident. [02:26:05] Speaker C: Yeah. This was, like, awesome. And how do we wrap this up? [02:26:11] Speaker A: Do we have any we do a peace sign. This is Austin's vibe. Right? And we say thank you and goodbye.