Interview with Peter Clark

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello. Hi. I'm Aaron Zarovsky. [00:00:03] Speaker B: And I'm Austin Shaw. [00:00:04] Speaker A: This is between the keyframes episode 31 interview with Peter Clark Hello, everybody. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome. Welcome to the between the keyframes. We're here with Peter Clark. Oh, no. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Just well, you have to explain what just happened. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:00:29] Speaker B: So we recorded, like, 30 minutes and then realized that I wasn't recording. So that was fun. So we had a good rehearsal. Man, we solved a lot of problems in that initial conversation. Just too bad. Too bad it didn't get recorded. [00:00:46] Speaker C: We predicted the future of AI. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:00:49] Speaker C: We know where it's going. Exactly where it's going. [00:00:52] Speaker A: Awesome. [00:00:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:00:54] Speaker A: Well, here we are. [00:00:55] Speaker B: We're here. [00:00:56] Speaker A: It's happening, and we're excited to be talking to Peter. [00:00:59] Speaker C: Yes. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Thanks for having me. And we do have a lot to talk about. I know know. We've spoken at Simula at the same conference a few times, and we actually all just saw each other at Camp MoGraph. So that was fun. It's a little hard for us. You could probably tell because we've already talked about no. So we all know each other. Austin and Peter go way back. Why don't you give a little backstory? [00:01:28] Speaker B: We go all the way back to the 2010s. So Peter graduated from SCAD in 2014, which means we probably met in 2012 or something somewhere around there. And super talented designer director, and we've become good friends. We're both in the Pacific Northwest. Peter's down in Portland, Oregon. He's been up to visit Western Washington University a few times now. We did a workshop, super fun experimental workshop. And you've also done some class. Yeah. So really excited to have you here. Get to kind of learn more about you and pick your brain and yeah, that's what's up. [00:02:20] Speaker A: One of the things that we talked about that I thought was really interesting, and I find really interesting just about our field is how early we get started. What were you doing in high school before you even got to college? What is your early interest? [00:02:40] Speaker C: Yeah, so in high school, we had laptops for class, and I was, like, the only art kid in school, pretty much. So they set up photoshop on my computer, and I got hooked on it and then started doing these Photoshop competitions on worth 1000. Com, which looked a lot like kind of AI prompt type stuff now, but it was the thing where they'd give you a theme, like turn a celebrity into fruits or animals or something, and then you get two days to do it, and then you submit what you made, and then everybody judges it. And if you win, you get points on the website to be able to submit to more competitions. And it was a really good resource for me because a lot of people were super friendly on there, and they'd leave comments which were usually critiques on your work, and they'd say, oh, I like how you did this, but you could defocus the background. And here's a tutorial I made on how to do you know, you'd go to their tutorial and you'd learn how to do gaussian blur or how to make a vignette. And it was a really great space to learn, and it got me super comfortable with photo bashing stuff. And I think my first intro to Austin in college was his first assignment in his design for motion class, was to composite animals into these different spaces. So I was pumped because it felt like such a familiar space for me. I was like, yes, I am in the right place, the right major. Yeah, that was kind of like the early start for me. And I was doing a few pieces. Like, I sold my first piece of art in high school right before I went to college. I had done a photo bashing thing of speakers as a hummingbird, and then this music artist, Bass Nectar, ended up buying it. So that was kind of my first beginnings where I thought, oh, maybe I'll do album art. Maybe that's like my future as doing still graphic design for music. And it's kind of funny that now I'm mostly doing tour visuals for music tours. So I'm still kind of in the same space in animation rather than stills. [00:05:00] Speaker A: It's still design. Yeah. [00:05:04] Speaker B: I did that whole photo compositing, which comping as our kind of shorthand slang term, I still think is one of the core skills for designers. If you want to get that range, that ability to make a lot of different styles, it's like having those comping skills. And it's been interesting. I trying to get graphic design students to be less afraid of Photoshop. Right? So I think it's interesting you were already doing it in high school. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Yeah, my first love was Photoshop, too. It took me a little bit to get into Illustrator. I felt like Vector was so limiting, where Photoshop was very like, I could go pixel by pixel if I wanted. To me, it was almost like being. [00:05:48] Speaker B: A fine artist, right? Like, you can do anything in that space. [00:05:54] Speaker C: I don't think I liked Illustrator until I started doing motion graphics and then realized the whole pipeline there and then. It just reignited my love for it. [00:06:05] Speaker B: That's interesting because you were a graphic design major first, but you didn't kind of love Illustrator. What were you kind of mainly planning it? Photoshop or InDesign or what were you kind of living in those classes? [00:06:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a lot of Photoshop and InDesign. And honestly, I just loved the practical stuff. Refotographing, make some type, project it on something, refotograph that, and that's like your poster graphic, like, stuff that's not super great for client work. Like, if they ask to change something, you got to do the whole not very procedural, but when you're in school, it's like you can do that's, like, the place to experiment and try weird stuff and so that was like my happy place with that space. And I did a little bit of Illustrator and started doing laser cut stuff because the industrial design, we do those collaborative classes and they'd let us use their facilities. And I loved physical type or bringing any vector shape into a physical existence that I could light and move around. So I feel like that was a lot of the space I was delving into in graphic design. And the cleaner vector stuff just never felt like it had it felt like I couldn't put the personality I wanted to into it. It was always just a little too clean. [00:07:34] Speaker B: Right. Want to rough it up a little bit? [00:07:37] Speaker C: Yeah. But then once I started animating, it was like, oh, my gosh, this is great. I can bring in all these crazy shapes and change them whenever I want, and it'll update and it's perfect. [00:07:48] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. [00:07:50] Speaker B: How does motion and graphic design education fit and practice, really, but kind of in that I think maybe looking at the gap in education where motion is maybe missing in the traditional graphic design education. And then I think maybe in some of these motion heavy kind of programs where maybe some of the design is missing and you being a person who was a double major who did both at SCAD and just curious. Your thoughts and maybe this question of what did you get out of your graphic design education? That was maybe missing in the motion side. And then we'll flip it the other way, too. [00:08:31] Speaker A: That's a great question. [00:08:33] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good one. Well, I guess the motion design side, I started in graphic design first and realized I love Typography. I loved playing with textures, found a lot of artists that I really admired, like Kyle Cooper, where they were bringing type into physical spaces. So I feel like when I went into the motion design side, I felt very comfortable working with type, working with grids, all the traditional design side stuff. So making a frame was like my comfort zone. It was really easy to make my designs, and then making it move was where I had to really put my time in. And I think I definitely saw some students, like, ask Ad that would struggle with the design side and they could make something move really nicely. But then if your core design isn't if it doesn't look good, then you've just got a nice, moving, bad looking thing. [00:09:39] Speaker B: Best case scenario. [00:09:41] Speaker A: Right? [00:09:43] Speaker C: And then especially with Typography, too, typography has all these little minutiae to it that it's just nice to have that foundation and then the reverse, I guess, in graphic design, I always struggled in graphic design that so often you were making one image and you had to say everything with that image. And I really wanted to tell sequential stories, like something someone could experience and be immersed in. So I wanted to bring in music have things change over time. And it just felt like that was always missing in graphic design for me. And this wasn't like when I was in the graphic design major, I feel like people were just branching into like, oh, now it's all about apps and web, and you're designing for that. And now I think it's even more important for graphic designers to understand motion because you're making all these previews of how the app is going to move. You're going to show how this screen switches to that screen, and is it really snappy and kind of blocky, or is it this smooth, keyframe animation? So I feel like it's becoming more important for graphic designers to understand motion so then you can be a part of that process. You're not just making the design, and then you have to hand it off to someone else to make it move, and then you have to go back and forth. I'm like, no, I imagine that being a nice, smooth thing that slides in. Yeah, I definitely think they go hand in hand now. And yeah, it's really important, I think, for graphic designers to not only be able to establish the visual rhythm of how they lay out everything, but the rhythm of how it moves. [00:11:23] Speaker B: So it sounds like really the timeline. [00:11:26] Speaker C: Right. [00:11:26] Speaker B: That's where my head went, listening. Is that the timeline, the consideration, awareness, and practical use of how do I actually navigate a timeline? Probably what's maybe missing from the traditional graphic education and then motion, the kind of foundational training, and like you said, the grids hierarchy type, typography, maybe, and just that design sense, what might be missing from more of a motion centric education. [00:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the way we think of a graphic design degree is you have typography as a pillar. You have color theory as a pillar. You have composition and hierarchy. And I think motion is a pillar now. And I think you don't have to be an animator to be a motion designer necessarily anymore. I think to be a designer is to understand how your work is going to appear in the world. And most of the world is moving now, whether it's new media, app design, website design, experiential design, or I mean, even point of purchase, there's moving things now, like very traditional, and bus shelters and posters. Like, all this moves now. And certainly if there is a still print component, there's usually a moving component. Like if you go into a restaurant, sometimes it's a digital menu, sometimes it's a print menu, but sometimes it's a digital menu now. So everything has this kind of living component that gets to your point, that is narrative. And if it's narrative, you have, at the very least, a beginning, a middle, and an end. And that gets into messaging and hierarchy. So instead of designing one frame, you should be at least designing three frames, even if you don't really know how it's going to move, at least setting the look for what those three frames are doing and being able to have a conversation with the animator that's bringing it to life is very important. [00:13:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Get off my soapbox. [00:13:36] Speaker B: Well, I think it's interesting too, because that graphic design education that more traditional design does carries through in a lot of your work. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:13:45] Speaker B: And I know we've talked a lot about it and I've listened to you talk about too, even with practical type of projects and setting up ways, using graphic language to set up transitions, even in an analog environment or practically shot. So maybe hearing a little bit about that thinking and. [00:14:08] Speaker C: Think I was very inspired by Kyle Cooper's work. I think that was still when I was a graphic design major and I was really worried about having a darker aesthetic that I like to do because it's a little less. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker C: And I remember seeing him in History of Graphic Design textbook, and it was like stills from the seven titles. Like, all right, if this guy's in a history book and is being shown as top tier designer and all these people know this titles, then there's a space for that kind of work. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah, but no, you're right. Just because it's like a moody or aesthetic doesn't mean that it might be like a limited market. But it's still like especially if you're interested in the music space or the cinematic space, which is where you've landed firmly. And even with the brands you've worked with, they're more, I don't know, open to that kind of a vibe. I mean, think about gaming now, the kind of things that can be produced for them. Think about I don't know, I could probably rattle off a bunch of brands that all would produce work in your. [00:15:22] Speaker B: Style Game Awards, which you do that's like a regular client, right? [00:15:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely started to discover the brands where that overlapped. And I think kind of going back to the point of graphic design background, incorporating into motion. I think in graphic design, I learned a ton about brand systems typography, like setting up that whole system. And then you have the first freelance client. The first client that reached out to me directly was like, I want you to do your style was the Video Game Awards. And it was to do a branding package. And that was mind blowing to me. And then he's like referencing all this cool work that's really dark, glitchy, kind of holographic stuff, and then referenced like a personal project I did that I did not think anyone would ever be psyched on. And just very dark, glitchy stuff. [00:16:18] Speaker A: That's super cool. It's so interesting. I think a lot. There's a quote from Steve Martin. He was giving an interview and this person who was clearly a comedian, so desperately trying, I think, to be a comedian asking for advice. What do you have to do to become known. And he's like, well, it's not going to the right parties. How do you become visible to casting agents? And these people, he's like, Trust me, if you do the work and you're good, they will find you, but you have to do the work to stand out. And it's a much shorter, more simple quote than that, but something like I. [00:16:57] Speaker B: Remember was it like, be so good they can't ignore you. Something like that. Yeah. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Be so good they can't ignore you. And it seems like you've created a lane for yourself and a sensibility for yourself, that if somebody's looking for that, they're looking for you. [00:17:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd like to echo that and just say that. That is something I really admire. Because I think about, given the space to just make stuff, I have a certain aesthetic I'll gravitate to, and it's got a certain look and all. And sometimes I do that in my commercial practice, but often in my commercial practice, I'm pretty adaptable, generalist, where it's like, they come to me and I'm like, I could do that look, and I could do that. And I got a range. And most of the practice is that. And you really have carved out your aesthetic and presented that as a designer director and built, in a sense, a brand and a business around it, where people are hiring you for your aesthetic. And that's super cool. [00:17:59] Speaker A: That's amazing. It's wonderful. But it's to that Steve Martin thing. Be so good, they can't ignore, like, you created that personal project and that was it, like, reminds me of Sakani and all these other super talented people that just did their thing and it really worked for them. [00:18:19] Speaker C: Yeah. And you see what Sakani's doing now, and it looks like I remember seeing him at SCAD and the stuff he was doing, and I see that same thread of how he animates the type of lighting he likes to do at SCAD. It was obviously, like early Sakani and now it's like crazy high end renders, like next level. But it's cool still seeing that he just had that style he loved to do and just embraced it. And now he's, like, running it's like a cash. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. [00:18:54] Speaker C: Their own thing. Like a little mini studio. [00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah, they just do that brand film. It's awesome. But you know what? What you just said, I see the same thing with you. Even when you were discussing about the way of when you were doing graphic design, it was more about shooting practical. And it's like, yeah, of course. That makes so much sense. I found myself just nodding my head. And what you've embraced and some of the practical effects. Yeah, it's super cool. It is kind of neat to see those trajectories of the alumni. [00:19:33] Speaker A: I think I would be curious if I was listening to this and I was leviting my academic kind of finishing up school. I wonder what was your transition from school into the professional world? Like, did you have mentorships? What did that look like and feel like for you? Because people are like, yeah, but you don't just go from school to doing this amazing work. There has to be some kind of in between, and certainly a lot of time has passed. So you've put in the miles. I would say it's miles. You got to do the miles. [00:20:08] Speaker C: Yeah. That transition was pretty terrifying for me because I had the minor and then ended up doing the double major. I never did internships over the summers. I ended up staying in Savannah to do the classes to be able to graduate at some reasonable time. So I never really got that. Go meet people at studios. I kind of wish I did, but, yeah, I basically just was in school till 2014, and then I think it was like, a couple of months before graduating. Autofuss studio came as part of CoMotion maybe? Or they were just there to show their work. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah, they were doing, I think, portfolio. [00:21:00] Speaker C: So and then Gmonk and Ashley Rodholm interviewed me, and I was huge fan of Gmonk. Like, saw his Tron work, knew he was, like, this crazy high energy director. And I just remember in the review, he just grabbed my laptop and pulled it. Like, I was trying to show one of my compositing frames from one of your classes, Austin, and he just pulled the laptop over and was, like, looking at it super close. And I was so anxious. He's like, oh, you made this in Photoshop? Oh, yeah. Use the brush tools. How'd you do this? And I was just, like, getting amped on it. So I was like, okay. I really like this guy's energy. He seems very intense and focused, and there was a lot more attention than I thought I would get in a portfolio review. I thought they'd kind of graze over it, be like, okay, cool. You're a practical guy. Sweet. We could use that for A, B, and C. But he actually dialed in and took the time to nitpick my stuff and give me feedback. And so then they said they might be doing internships, but were vague, and they said to keep in touch. And I hadn't really set up any other studio connections and was just kind of, like, hoping maybe that would work out because Autofuss did all this crazy practical effects work with robots. They did the box piece with the projection mapped panels moving around that was all over the Internet at that time, so it would definitely be the ideal. And then I didn't hear from him. And in classic student fashion, I was way too nervous to reach out again because I didn't want to annoy a producer. And then I think it was like Justin Cohn visited, and I was talking to him about it kind of stressing. It's like, oh, you should reach out to him again. Reach out to Bradley. He got my confidence up, reached back out, and they're like, oh, yeah, sorry we haven't reached out. Studio has been crazy and ended up setting something up. Went out there. I think it was set up like the month I was it just my brain was like, no, it's not real. They're going to tell me it's not going to work out. I'm going to be stuck back home with my parents or something. And then ended up going out to San Francisco for like a three month internship, which is crazy because it was like low budget internship in the most expensive city I could possibly move to. Never lived in a big city before. Did not know anyone who lived there, like, beyond Gmonk, which I had met for like 20 minutes. [00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I see that. You're total fish out of water. You're just like, yeah, leap of faith. [00:23:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So I just went all out. First month was just insane because everyone there was super senior. And it was a really weird studio because they're not specific to motion design. They do a million different things. So they had industrial designers, roboticists. They had all sorts of grips, Pas, and in house DP, motion designers, graphic designers, all these experimental engineering design lab. Yeah, it was just like a warehouse filled with stuff and people just doing and it was perfect for me coming out of school because a lot of people there stayed late to use the facilities to do their own thing. So, like, roboticists would stay to build their own little robots. The wood shop workers would stay behind to build, like a cabinet or whatever. There's all this stuff that people could use. They had a music room. Some people would jam in there. So it was a really amazing space to go to right out of school. And it also pushed me really hard because, you know, wanted to become part of that community and feel like I was pulling my weight. So I remember they were working on a big spot for Audi with these big moving panels that were like glasses and you could see through the car. And I remember Chris Bajier, Michael Wrigley were both like 3d Animators on it. And they were staying super late because the robots were too heavy with this thing. So they had to change the animation to it was all this technical stuff. And I just wanted to kind of be around all of it. So I just photoshop photo bash things. And then eventually Gmong's like, oh, you're hanging out. You want to do the titles at the bottom, the supers or whatever. I'm like, yeah, I'd like to do that. And it's not glorious work, but I was hyped to be involved on the big, and of course, I think I screwed one of them up. It was a spelling error. And then he was like, this is why you always check your work before it goes out. You got a talking yeah, and it's on a small thing. But it was still like, it was nice to be a part of it. And I probably could have gone home at the normal time and not been involved in a lot of things, but I just wanted to be on those projects. And I felt like the way to be included was to stay there and try and help offload the workload that these very experienced designers had. And I think that paid off because then they put me on the off titles for Cincinnati, which was, like, all practical type. Yeah. And it was know, in a studio that's filled with all these tools, it was so fun because I was like, oh, I always want to try vacuum forming. They're like, oh, well, this roboticist built his own vacuum forming table. You just attach a shop vac to it, and then the industrial designer is like, here, I'll show you how to heat the plastic. And then the lead type designer, Rowan, is like, oh, you want a cool typeface? You want that? Oh, I got one for you. And he shows me this great typeface. I'm like, oh, that'sick. And then they're showing me how to glue acrylic together to make it tall enough to vacuum form. So I'm learning all these techniques. And then as part of that, I knew Bradley is all about the behind the scenes stuff. No one's filming or doing photos of people working. And I had a really crappy Canon T two I at the time. So I would just go around in my free time and photograph people while they were working. And it was so fun because I got to learn everybody's techniques, like, see what they were making, how they're going about it, get to know all the designers because they're just chatting with me while I'm taking photos, and then I get to share that at the end. So it was like a really amazing space to start in. And I remember one of the senior designers was always telling me, he's like, man, enjoy the studio while you can, because I guarantee you'll never work at a place as crazy as like, this is a special place. And it was largely in part because they had just been acquired by Google for the robotics division. But the design division was also under that in which I didn't understand at the time as an entry level designer. But all the senior artists knew that that meant they had this year to coast and do fun stuff and not worry about getting paid and all that, because big daddy Google's got the cash coming in. And then as of the end of the year, which know, this happens in the Bay Area all the time, know, Google came in and was like, oh, okay, well, we want to start incorporating you into the other robotics division. So we want to move everybody to a bigger warehouse and have a little more say in what you're doing. And then all the designers kind of like, think, I'm going freelance now. And then the studio dissipated, and then I had to go do what I would consider real, the real tough motion work where I went to a VFX house and was doing Rotoscoping, putting type on credit cards, spinning around at three in the morning. Like the Real got in the trenches. Glorious stuff. Yeah. And it paid the bills for San Francisco. But it made me love that studio even more because I realized how fortunate I was to come out of school and go into a space that was so inclusive and inspiring and it didn't drain me. [00:29:18] Speaker B: And experimental. I wonder how much that fed your experimental. I mean, that seems like that's kind of your nature anyway. But what a place to kind of show you plant. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Possible. Yeah, it was possible. And you've built that, like, cut to now it's like you're building your own version of that. [00:29:41] Speaker C: I've always had those dreams of, like, I want to be a studio owner and have the space and then yeah, I always like talking to studio owners about their day to day because I feel like especially the ones I talked to in the Bay that had huge overheads with the price of that city, most of them never got to touch the work that their studio produced. And when they got home, it was like family time. And I feel like I would struggle with that. I mean, maybe as I get older, I would struggle with it less, but I know I've struggled with that. Like the idea of never getting to make things and produce it with my hands and be a part of the team. [00:30:26] Speaker B: I wasn't going to say, you got a studio owner right here. You could ask away. [00:30:30] Speaker A: No, when I think about what you're doing, I think you're doing it at a scale that is manageable, like robotic arms and all that nonsense. But you've kind of located yourself in a city where you can have space and you can have all this stuff. I don't know, I just think of you as like a mad scientist in a big garage kind of making stuff. Is that an accurate description? [00:30:58] Speaker C: I'll get the garage soon. Most of my stuff is just like. [00:31:07] Speaker B: I saw the CRT TV. [00:31:10] Speaker C: Yeah. And then I've got a whole closet full of materials because I'm just a hoarder with that stuff. I think that's the healthy hoarding. When you're like a practical effects artist, it's great to just have a little room where, when you go in, you get to see a bunch of disparate things next to each other and be like, oh, I could shoot a laser at that. And that would reflect. And then if I get that in there, that would look cool. [00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah, totally mad scientist. But it's like. Through the design filter. [00:31:40] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I don't know how because I get a decent amount of client work, but I don't know if it would ever get to the level where I'm like, yeah, I can open a legit studio and be supported by the kind of the niche space. But again, kind of going to the point of I always want to be kind of involved. So I always would see myself more as senior animator of some sort at a studio where someone who's really good at running a studio and managing people and gets that satisfaction of seeing, oh yeah, I'm helping them put dinner on the table for their kids and create that space. Because I know that would be fulfilling for me, but I think I wouldn't be the best fit for a studio owner. So I feel like I'll keep it small scale unless I meet someone that's like, hey, I really want to run a space. You should be like our guy and be part of it. And anything remotely close to Autofuss, I'd get pretty psyched on, but I know that's like a rare space. But Aaron, I'm curious about your journey. Did you go through the different rungs of designing Animating and then realize, like, oh, I really want to start running the studio and have people take over Animating? Or do you feel like you kind of fast tracked into, I want to start a business and get straight into that space? [00:33:13] Speaker A: I think looking back, maybe it was a little fast, but it didn't feel fast because just the hours of work were piling up. I definitely went through the rungs. I didn't spend as much time on the animation rung, but that's because I think I really had a gift for conceptualization and design. And so when you're making a lot of boards and you're selling a lot of boards, it's hard for somebody to validate putting you on the box to Animate something for a few months because you're making and selling boards. And then I started leading those projects because I could lead the project and make boards and sell more projects. And then I got good at communicating with clients and navigating the process. And because I was kind of in the trenches with everybody, I understood how people animated things. And it's not that I couldn't animate, it just wasn't my superpower, but I certainly understood the energy and the time and the craftsmanship and the art of it. So I wasn't making promises that were obscene. So that was great. I never desired to be a studio owner. I think I always saw myself as a creative leader. I always think I wanted to be in creative leadership because I really like looking at this person's really good at that, and that person's really good at that, and I'm really good at this, and I could kind of put teams together in the way that would really spark magic for a project. So I was very good at that, and I was also very good at communicating with the client and navigating expectations. And that is certainly a gift. Just being able to kind of help control the chaos of production is hard, like an emotional journey, not even like the making of the thing isn't that hard. Sometimes it goes smoothly, sometimes it's a little bit like pulling teeth, but eventually you get there. But how do you walk a client through those processes, especially when it is hard? It's really then, you know, I really wound up in Chicago after school with Digital Kitchen, and then when that was over, I went to New York, which is where I'm from, and I really didn't like being in New York. I missed Chicago, but it was more of a post city, a post house city. And aside from digital kitchen where I knew I was not going back to I knew I wanted to come back to Chicago, but it wasn't going to be working for film workers or somebody that was more editorial or more just like traditional. Because even though they had design departments or divisions with separate names and fancy reels, I knew that that was an add on service and I wanted to be design led and design driven. And so what drew me back to Chicago was ultimately somebody saying they would represent me like DK's old rep and say, I could get you some work, just start, you know, I certainly knew enough people that have freelancers come by and help me if I got in over my head. And so it started small. I actually started with a couple of business partners, but that fell apart, like, instantaneously. And I think that's what made me, like you said, make the leap into it. And that fell apart really quickly. And I was very lost. And I was very like, what am I going to do? Do I become a director on somebody's roster? I was getting offered at a couple of really big places like, hey, be a director, hey. And I'm like, yeah, but I need a team. I can't just be a director at a production company. I need a team of artists and producers. There's a whole process. And I was feeling pretty lost, and it was only like a couple month overlap between that company, kind of, but I was still finishing out the work for it. So even though that was winding down and I was feeling, like, a little lost, like, what am I going to do? Am I going to have to move back to New York or La. Right at the turn of the year? One a client that we were kind of doing a little dance with a little bit earlier, and nothing really worked out. They called and said, I got one for you. It wound up being like, a really large job. And I was like, yeah, but I'm not doing the company with these partners anymore. They're like, we didn't come for those guys. We came for you. Just make yourself a company and get it together. Get yourself a producer. So, of course, freelancers. I put a little band together, and that's why the company's name is my name, because I didn't have time to think of something, and I was coming off of something where it seemed like the person might be using my name to get work, even though I wasn't participating in the company. And my lawyer had advised me, just use your name as the company name to start, and then that will kind of change the ballgame on that side. And so now I have the burden of my name to live up to as the company name, because I just made a logo and put it out there, and it's always just been work, work. It's not been branding, branding, branding. And by the time it was time for real branding, people knew the name. So I was like, oh gosh, okay. So the desire wasn't to be like it was to be a creative leader, not a business owner. And I would say the thing I've had to work really hard at is kind of accepting ownership of it, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, if things go right, I get the credit even if I not really touch the work. And if things go wrong, even if it's not my fault, I have to come and take the punch, you know what I mean? The good and the bad is all mine to own. And then just really being the front person for your team. So throwing money at something if you need to throw money at something, but like extra artists or just taking real responsibility over the health of the studio and the work and all of that stuff, and then times where it's like, hey, you don't need to be spending that much money on this thing. What's going on here? Sometimes you kind of got to be like a bad guy. But I hate being a person that has to think about that, you know what I mean? But that's what a healthy company is. There's a lot of factors in play that have kind of nothing to do with the work and more to do with, especially as we grow, we're like 30 full timers, maybe a little more now, and that's hierarchy that's like department leads and young artists and older artists, and it just feels like a lot. [00:39:43] Speaker B: You got to delegate and trust that everybody's going to do. I mean, and I guess that's part of I know I've struggled with that at times where it's like, yeah, I just do everything myself. But did you ever struggle with that? Or were you always just like, okay, I can delegate and I can trust, and I can step in and steer them or course correct as needed? [00:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I've gotten better at it. I still like knowing everything. What I don't like is when I didn't see that coming, so and so is not doing well. Why didn't I hear about that sooner? But I think people want to do their job really well and they don't want it to be my problem. But I think that's a sign that. [00:40:25] Speaker B: Something is going right, actually. [00:40:28] Speaker A: It's like people taking ownership of their roles in the company. That does not come easy, I would say, for anybody. Delegating. And then when it ultimately comes down to delegating the creative, that was the hardest part because sometimes you're just like, oh my God, if I just did that, it would just go faster, be smoother, do all the things. But my job is to empower people to do it, not to do it anymore. [00:40:56] Speaker C: Oh yeah. And it's so satisfying when you do delegate something that you were tempted to do yourself and then the other person exceeds this amazing thing that you're like, wow, I never would have thought to do that. And it looks awesome. I've had a few collaborations recently that were exactly that, where I'm like, I might do this solo, but it would be really nice to work with this person. So I'm going to go for this collab and see what happens. And then they vend out all the stuff. I'm like, wow, that is so sick and I have no idea how to make that now. It's so satisfying that we get to make this thing together because Delegating work is so terrifying when you know, it's like, yeah, your name, it's your thing as a studio too. It sounds terrifying. That's amazing how you got into it though. It's like the hero's journey of where they kind of deny the thing at first like, no, I don't want to be the studio owner. And then it's like you kind of get thrown into it. Well, this massive job is kind of. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Forcing you to the call to adventure studio. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Literally. It's like passing a threshold. I remember going to the courthouse in my yoga pants being like, I am starting a business, here is the paperwork. And they were like, congratulations. And it was just me and a lot of it had to do everything was just calling my lawyer and accountant. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Being like, what do I do? [00:42:25] Speaker A: That's what all those people were for my whole life. They just sorted through all that. And even now it just gets bigger and more complicated, more zeros. [00:42:34] Speaker B: You're just like, oh my God. [00:42:35] Speaker A: It just feels like not just my family, it's 30 families plus other people, my clients families and the freelancers families and all that stuff. But I have to say it's rewarding to hear even just you talking about collaborations because I think one of the things that we can do as we get older in addition to mentor and I think some of the things that we can do really well is curate talent. So curate talent through your lens is going to be different. If I curate talent through my lens, it's going to be different personalities. It's going to be different styles. There's going to be this natural thing and as you do that so I think ultimately creative leadership is curation of talent and then mentoring talent. And then if it's not a right fit, the worst thing you can do is continue to try and nurture it. Because if it's not a right fit for you, it's not a right fit in reverse either. And so that can kind of create a negative, longer term negative experience. And then it's always on us to be like, it's not working because they're always going to kind of keep grasping on so it sucks. It sucks being the bad guy, but when it really hits, it's just like, fuck yeah, I got one. But it's a lot of fishing and a lot of research and looking and portfolio reviews and checking back in with people and watching who checks back in with you and how they do it and the work they're making over time. And it's not necessarily the work that they show you to start, but then six months later, a year later, when you see their progression and you're like, oh my God, this person made that in a state school with no resources. Like what? It's different when you see some of that evolution out of people in a motion media program, but it's a whole other thing when you're looking out in the boondocks and you see like one in the wild. That's like my new thing, my new thrill is really getting out there and seeing who is making something at a next to nothing. [00:44:49] Speaker C: Yeah. Swatching like a bunch of crazy YouTube. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Videos and taking a two year design program. Here's some school motion classes. Motion hatch. They're just kind of piecemealing it together, or in a four year degree, but it's like a graphic design degree. And they have almost no animation experience, but they're going out there and figuring out how to they fell in love with it. So they're kind of cobbling it together themselves. And they're emailing you asking for a portfolio review and you're just like, shelf. Yeah, okay, keep in touch. Put me in touch with your teacher. I'll do a portfolio review for the class, kind of things like that. To see, okay, let me see the context of what this person's working with. That takes a lot of work as a curator of talent. But that's how you get it. That's how you do it. I just gave her away. My secret sauce. [00:45:37] Speaker C: Yeah. It's interesting with my progression because Gmunk's been definitely the biggest design mentor for me, brought me into Autofuss. He took the risk of bringing me in, which I later on learned that they weren't even planning to hire interns. Apparently it was more me expressing interest in him being like, we should give this kid a shot. Just let him come in. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Why not? [00:46:07] Speaker C: They were kind of like, yeah, three month internship. We'll see what happens. So he took the risk for me, and we've been working together ever since. I've done so many projects together, and it's been interesting going from the intern that the mentor seems like this godlike figure that just blows you away to now. I've known them for almost, like, eight or nine years, I think, and gotten to the point where I'm sitting on a call where they're talking about hiring a studio to do something, and I get to hear him talking about his logic as to why he picks this studio versus that studio versus the network he's pulling from. And it showed me so much about what directors do in terms of curating, because for his personal work, he'll sit down and get on the box and make stuff. But for a lot of the big work that he's known for, he's largely doing that, like, curating designers that he knows, like, yeah, this UI designer with that VFX artist with this studio is going to be, like, knowing and also him knowing that if I put these people together, it's going to look like my style, my thing of work. He knows they're not going to go off on a tangent. So it's been really interesting growing older as a designer and getting more and more windows into that process and kind of seeing how a top tier director does that kind of work. Because when you're an intern, you're always like, oh, he sits down and he's working with everybody, and he's doing all the stuff, and then you realize, like, wow, there's way too much work for him to be involved on that level. And he's also directing, like, five projects at the same time. So it's like you start to see just that the power of curating delegating and knowing when to step in and show people the right inspiration, the right feedback, but not, like, handhold. And he's so good at convincing people to commit to it, where it becomes, like, their thing, too, where they're like, oh, I want it to be amazing. It's part of me now. It's not just, like, a client ownership. It gave me huge respect for directors and studio owners because it can be hard to hype people up and inspire them. So it's definitely like an art form that I hope I can, at some point start to master, but for now, working on my practical effects craft. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Well, what do you like about practical effects? What draws you to them? Is it just the fact that it isn't procedural, that it is pretty organic? Is it the process or the look? Is it the process of making it. [00:49:02] Speaker C: Or the definitely, I think it's both, but the process is a huge part of it, and I think that's largely because we had to do, like, research papers at SCAD, and this is in the graphic design department. They had us write research papers on specific artists. And they gave me Richard Sarah. Knew nothing about him at the beginning of I. So I'm reading all these interviews about him and fell in love with his like, he is such a rad sculptor. And I love that he was so focused on getting people to think about the process of a work by doing these massive metal slabs that you walk through, and it'll be in a museum. And so many times I've gone to a Richard Sarah piece and overheard people saying, how did they get it in here? How did they put that in the museum? How did they bend the metal like that? And because it's just this raw thing not trying to hide the process behind it. And so it gets people to think about, how did the artist make this thing? And I love that with practical effects because people look at it and they'll be like, oh, that's dust. Oh, that's a little tiny thing, not a big thing. And oh, you're filming it with, like, a lens really close up. They start to notice things. And I love that. Then people get that moment of like, wow, that's real. That's something in the world. And for me, it's just this constant, like, wow, physics and science. There's so many cool things happening in the world that I'm overlooking constantly, and it just reignites my love for the environment around me. And I think if the projects I'm making can do that on a small level, for people watching it, that's like a huge win. I love the idea of getting people excited about the environment around them when they watch a piece because we're so continually moving into strapping screens to our faces and kind of separating from a lot of our environment. And then so process wise, it's super fun for me because I'm finding all these cool things and playing with materials. But then also there's a facet of it where I wouldn't consider myself a super technical animator. So things like 3D software, like, I was learning Unreal engine, that was like the most dense thing I've tried to learn in a while. And so it can really hinder a lot of my intuition on animation choices. [00:51:35] Speaker A: Because I'm struggling to get serendipitous. Yeah, it takes the serendipity out of it. [00:51:39] Speaker B: You lose the flow. It's hard. [00:51:40] Speaker C: Yeah, some people can really do it. [00:51:43] Speaker A: But it's not the same if you're. [00:51:47] Speaker C: Yeah, like, there are some friends that are so comfortable being like, what's this new thing? I'm going to watch YouTube videos about it. And then they're making cool stuff with it in like two. Then, you know, I feel like for me, analog stuff is great because I still have to do the learning process. I've started playing with one of these desktop Tesla coils. So it shoots little electric bolts. And I've been trying all sorts of different things to try and build sculptures that you'll be able to see the bolts come off of it. And that's like a learning process because now I know, oh, if you get this type of wire for jewelry, it's a different type of metal inside that's cheaper, and they're coating it in the wire that they're telling you it is. Seems like useless knowledge for motion design. But now I'm learning it because I'm like, oh, I need to get pure copper at a thinner gauge, and then that'll conduct electricity the way I want it to, so it's got its own learning to it. But I love that. Then maybe your project will come up and they'll be like, oh yeah, we want to do something about this product. And it uses copper to line the thing. I'm like, oh, that's rad. I'm already thinking about copper. Copper as a material has meaning with your product and how I'm generating these visuals. So now the process has a lot of meaning to me just interconnecting it. And I feel like I get that way more with practical effects than I do with digital. And then the output, I don't have to wait forever to render things and all that. And now with the newer Macs working with bro footage, it's so smooth and easy. And I'm getting, like, anamorphic lenses now, which are completely changing my love for practical effects. I'm investing a lot of stuff in camera gear and practical effect stuff. But it's so nice that the output has all these things that I feel like in digital, you're trying to add in terms of texture and the way that light bounces and all those little fine details that are just naturally there in camera. The chromatic aberration, the weird textures in the boca. I love that that stuff's baked in so interesting. [00:54:15] Speaker A: It's like sometimes we get, like, product stuff and they're like, should we shoot it practically or should we do it all CG? And I'm like, well, in a way, it kind of doesn't matter when we do it all CG. What we do is we get it going, but then it looks too good, so we're adding things to it to make it look like it was filmed. And then if you fucking film it, you're cleaning it up so much that you're making it look more CG. Either way you go, you're working back towards this sweet spot, right? [00:54:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:54:49] Speaker A: I think then it becomes about other things, at least in those situations. I think what you're talking about is a little bit more artistic, but I do think that when you talk about the strengths of one versus the other, oftentimes it's like, well, is it a picky client? Are they going to have a lot of changes? Is it something where they're going to have so many different aspect ratio deliveries that if it is done all CG, it's going to make the pipeline smoother is it something where the package could change in six months and it's better to not. If it's just done CG and we have the pipeline built, it's easier to just change the label and just send it back through. It becomes much more about those very practical questions. But certainly when you're filming screens and things like that, you're going to get one thing and you're going to get it once, and there's probably no way to replicate it right. [00:55:46] Speaker B: That bespoke exactly the same procedural. [00:55:53] Speaker C: The CG stuff is definitely much safer for the picky clients. Some picky client work with practical, like the video game Awards. I remember the second or third year I did it, we did probably like 50 logo variations and they were all like laser cut logos being lit. And it's like fun because once it's laser cut, you can hit it with all sorts of different lights, but then it's also like, oh, there's the fingerprint. Got to wipe that. Oh, now there's a smudge. I'll spray it. Oh, now you can see the edge where the spray and you end up just cleaning for so long and then in the end you're like, I just have to roto that out now. Or just light it in a different way. Yeah. And so you do get into that mid range where it's like, oh, I'm saving time on some things, but also losing a lot of time on cleanup or dirtying up a CG image. But I know in the end I still love that there's like a specific feeling when you light a set and it's like this dark room and it's so fun. When I ask a friend to help me with that stuff, I'm like, hey, can you come over and just help me just run the fog machine or just help me move some lights because we need like a moving light source. And then when they see it lit up in that, first you just get immersed. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Celebratory yeah, there's that moment of like. [00:57:31] Speaker C: And then like 10 hours later you're like, yeah, I'm so over this, I want to go to bed. I don't want to put away all these lights. [00:57:41] Speaker A: So where did you learn all these real techniques? Was it in those early days or is it just something where it just builds over time when you get a new device or a new thing to play with? [00:57:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I was curious too, because I know I'll see you do weird stuff with steel wool and lighting it on fire. Where does that come from? Do you just see other people? Are you researching? Are you on sets? [00:58:04] Speaker C: Yeah, it's all over the board. I know with a lot of the lighting stuff, like when I was at SCAD, I had this really lo fi, like green laser where you could run different patterns on it and a really cheap projector that I still have. The things somehow survived college, but that was a lot of me like, okay, what if I project on a metal plate? I'm like, okay, that looks kind of cool. And then I'll set down a glass of water and that catches the projection. I'm like, oh, I should project onto water and then I can displace it or something. I do a lot of that in school where it was just serendipitous kind of discoveries. And then I obviously learned a lot about lighting, and I feel like most of practical effects, like a predominant amount of it, is just lighting stuff, like figuring out where to put your lights and how to move them in a cool way. And I feel like I learned a lot about that when I started playing with three D. And they're like, this is a three point light setup. I'm like, oh, I could do that practically. So it was kind of a reverse thing there. But then learned a crazy amount of techniques at Autofuss, like that first studio, because that first job with the off titles, everybody was doing practical effects. So that was the first time I saw someone use a TV screen to light up acrylic. Like, one guy did a whole title using that, and I was like, this is you were like a sponge that. [00:59:29] Speaker B: You can just absorb it. [00:59:31] Speaker C: Yeah, because immediately you're like, there's all these variations you could do with that, because you obviously don't want to just see someone do something and do the exact same thing and just rip off whatever they're working on. But I think it's really healthy to see something and then say, oh, well, I could combine that with this, and that creates its own thing, and you just riff. And that's why I love sharing. Like, doing the effects demo at Western was really fun because I get to see the kids going through what I. [01:00:00] Speaker B: Go through and see what they come up with. [01:00:02] Speaker C: There's a new technique. Yeah. And then they're like, oh, and then I have this material I can combine with that, and they take it to a whole new space that I would never take it to. And then that pushes me to get crazier with my stuff because I'm like, oh, now they know how to do my special technique, I have to figure out a new variation. [01:00:20] Speaker A: I think that's why people resonate with your work, is they see the joy for the process and that bespokeness it does feel like a one off thing that you're never going to see again, and it's for that thing. And I don't know. I do think you can feel when somebody had fun making something or know sparks when they were doing it. And I definitely think that's why I resonate with your work. Why do you austin Why do you love Peter's work so much? Gosh, because you talk about it all the time. He talks about you all the time. It's kind of embarrassing to say out loud. But. [01:00:56] Speaker B: Peter, I'm like, okay, well, there is that level of craft and design right where it's really considered, but it also is running it through that more organic lens. But it's not purely it's like there is that seamless transitions between whether it's a practical kind of organic setup with lighting, actual lights, but then it can go into a Typographic world or even, like, CG moments. So there's just, like, a high level of design, but also with, I guess that unexpected materials. [01:01:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that, too. [01:01:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I feel like Autofuss really taught me a lot about that, like, combining the digital techniques with the analog, because I do a lot of analog work. But even on the show visual stuff I was doing recently, half of it is me animating in After Effects to make a pattern that I'm projecting on something. So it still has a lot of digital components. And I feel like taking classes with you, Austin. I learned so much about After Effects and how to make the digital stuff feel clean and well designed before I dirty it up and destroy it by projecting it on something or running it through a screen and filming it in a certain way. And, like, Autofuss a lot of people. There were very technical animators, like, super good at after effects, so I pulled a lot of techniques from watching them combine the two realms and then being at VFX houses, learned a lot about compositing and just the pain of a lot of VFX process that I could incorporate understanding like, oh, that's how you comp those together. I could comp these practical effect shots together in a way so it's all kind of I've just observed my environment, I guess, at all these different studios working with different artists. And then nowadays, it's a lot of looking at stuff on the Internet, googling physics, a lot of cool science experiments to teach kids about physics. And then I'll add in whatever material I'm trying to use for Nine Inch Nails, we were trying to do all this decaying looking stuff, and I was like, oh, I bet there's a really cool way to make melting stuff. And so I was looking around for stuff and found this Russian physics guy showing how you could melt styrofoam with these different chemicals, and it's know, really random YouTube hole to go down, but it's all to teach kids about chemical reactions in classes. [01:03:47] Speaker B: I love that you're looking at science experiments for inspiration. That's awesome, though. That's so much fun. [01:03:53] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's great because it's for teachers to teach kids, so they explain it really concisely, and they tell you where to buy the stuff. If you look up anything about cymatics or metallic magnetic reactions, there's a million people doing science channel stuff, and then there's, like, physics Girl, I believe, is her channel, and she gets deep on explaining the science behind it, but she also has really cool, like, you can just peruse her channel and find a million crazy things. [01:04:28] Speaker B: I think one other thing that where I think we resonate too, is that just this whole analog digital mashup. And that's a thread that I know. For me, my early education was studio art. My undergrad was studio art, and then my graduate was design and learning these digital tools. But always having that comfort in my own version of remixing, how to remix, and where the organic tactility, I think that resonates with people. Right? That's a very human quality. And then there is the real efficiency of digital production and just finding different ways to how do we use them both in a ways that is satisfying and sustainable. And plus, every time when we get together, you come and do a workshop, it's like, I'm like, okay, now I got to get another lens. All this, like, there's that cool microscope lens. Was it the nanoha? I think, yeah, you showed me that. And I was like, okay, I got to get one of these. And then it's part of an ongoing series where I'm just like, okay, now I want to play with that. And I'll do kind of my spin on these microscope photos and creating fun little type abstractions with them. You kind of keep pushing the experiment and thinking a little differently and literally off the box or out of the box type thinking and different types of setups. The CRT machine, the analog glitch. Super fun. [01:06:06] Speaker C: Yeah, I love when other people pick it up because it just creates a larger community and ideally more you start to see more projects in that realm, like the Coachella stuff, more accepted in. [01:06:20] Speaker A: A like the mainstream, like mainstream? [01:06:25] Speaker C: Yeah. The Coachella tour that I worked on with Human Person Studio, I was using the analog glitch, like the tachyon dream weapon that I have. And I think there were four other artists working on the same tour, and all of them had analog glitch gear. So it was just like this whole little pack of us doing cool glitchy stuff. And it was so satisfying to be on that job because I was like, oh, this felt like such a niche thing that it's rare that I get to work with other people with the gear and I get to see what they do with it. Because you see it on Instagram all the time of people doing very art driven glitch, and it's usually very strobey and crazy. And then I get this whole team, and it's like designers that come from a design background starting to use these tools, so they're just doing really cool compositing and using it in these more refined ways for these tours. And it's just like, whoa, I never thought of using the gear to get that result. That's really interesting. They composited it that way, and it's just awesome to see the community growing in that space and simultaneously, I'm like, I want to learn something new because now everybody's getting really good at using this gear. So I don't want to be like, pigeonholed into like, oh, he's an analog. [01:07:44] Speaker B: Stay ahead of the path. [01:07:47] Speaker C: Or just. [01:07:48] Speaker B: Keep you on your toes. [01:07:49] Speaker C: Yeah, because I definitely have the nightmare of being an artist that is seen as doing one style of work. And that's all I'll ever I don't mind if it's the tone of my work, is a style, but the technique that's why the illustration minor at SCAD freaked me out, because they were like, if you're going to be an illustrator, you have to have a very specific style. So art directors can hire you to do illustrations and they know it's going to look a specific way. [01:08:18] Speaker B: I think that's such an old school model for illustrators. I mean, and it made sense. And I remember the early days where I'd be at studios and you'd get books from Illustrators and it would be that one look. But yeah, to me, I think that was really fascinating and fun to see. A lot of illustration majors who were migrating over to Motion Media at SCAD because they didn't fit in that model of like, I don't want to just do one look. And I'm like, well, you could be a designer for Motion because you got range. But I feel like that's one of those real benefits of social, like, instagram and people who've been able to promote themselves on that, that they've been able to kind of break out of that model. But, yeah, it's tough unless you're a specialist. Like, being a one trick pony, I think, is really confining. It's constrictive super. [01:09:13] Speaker C: Yeah. If you're a little bit scary with where the AI stuff is going, just because it seems like the more easily your style can be hashtagged, and once there's enough of your stuff out there, then it's easier for you. Or another artist to be like, make this picture in this person's style, and then clients may potentially start undervaluing it compared to stuff where it's like, what do I even Google to get that image? Or that look? Like, what hashtag encompasses that style? And then I'm curious how that'll affect the scene. I'm hoping it drives a lot of people to get more crazy and unique with their approaches, where it's like, cool, AI can't copy me because this thing is not even really on the Internet. Maybe there's, like, two other artists that have done this weird technique and there's not enough of it for AI to replicate. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Well, I think whenever you have mass information, it overly generalizes and makes it become like a blob of kind of a look. It kind of morphs into one thing. So I think even though you could do in the style of I think it would take a lot of I don't know, I feel like the AIS without the human touch to it. Maybe they can generate an image or two. But if they have to extrapolate it into a piece, especially a motion piece, and not just an image, it is going to fall far short. There's craftsmanship required for that, and that comes from a lot of life lessons learned. And where that stuff is going to fall flat is with feedback. Sure, it might make you like your logo spin for you, but now you have how many rounds of feedback? How do you think it's like? Unless clients and people can be very clear and specific about what they want and there isn't any mind reading or experimentation in that process, I don't see the human component being pulled out of it. I do see efficiencies created, I think, like the rotoing, the Rotomation, the set extensions, things like that. There will be some crafts and some things that are eliminated, stabilization, adding. But that's the stuff that we're trying to bang out anyway, as cheaply as possible. So like, fuck yeah, make me a tool for that, you know what I mean? So I can focus more on the art side of it. So I'm thinking optimistically here, that there's only one you and some other people may be doing some stuff like you, but it's going to be really hard to go through a process and have the process go well and a desired outcome, like a beautiful piece at the end that is going to be at least not right now, not for a while. I don't see that happening. What's next for you? [01:12:25] Speaker C: This year has been kind of funny work wise. I kind of took a break from a larger project I was on this year and then have done a few smaller tour visual jobs. And yeah, I've never consciously taken time off from work before. It was like something and I became aware of it because in Francisco, like, I was just talking to a friend that worked at Autofuss when I was there. He's like, yeah, no one takes breaks in San Francisco. Like, you can't afford to take a break in that city because it's so expensive. And the mindset of so many people working there in motion is just like, just what's the next? So you get downtime, but it's never like, oh, I'm going to take this as me time. It's always like thinking about the next job. Don't want to take a vacation because you might miss a gig that comes up last minute. And then I move out to Portland where everything's significantly cheaper. And I just meet people who are, yeah, like, I'm taking the whole summer off to go climb in Asia. And then I'm going on a surf trip. And I'm like, oh, that's like, how do you do that? And they're like, oh yeah, I'm just living out of my van for a little while and that saves me, et cetera. So they've got it all planned out, but they're taking all this time to really enjoy the place where they live. And that got me reflecting on. I was like, wow. I have just never consciously taken a significant amount of time off. So after the coachella job this year, I decided that I'm going to essentially take the summer off to do bike packing trips, spend time with friends, go on skate trips, because the summertime in Portland is very coveted. It's so miserable in the winter. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to take conscious time to really fall in love with this city because I didn't do that in San Francisco. And I feel like I missed a lot of really amazing parts of that city because I was just always so, like, I'm open to work if a project comes up and the timing's right, I'm going to take stuff on. But it's like for once, I'm prioritizing. Oh, friends are coming into town. That week is for them, and we're going to do these things together. And if a job overlaps with it, I'm not doing that job. And I took a trip with my mom this year. It was the first one where it was just me and her. So had really nice bonding time with my mom. And it's just yeah, I've definitely noticed just stress levels and mentality on a lot of things has really shifted and. [01:15:10] Speaker B: It'S like a recharge. [01:15:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:15:14] Speaker B: You went to the Galapagos, right? [01:15:17] Speaker C: Yes, which was amazing. It definitely was super different than I thought it was going to be because I thought it was going to be these empty islands. Just like, you go out and it's like you're just in nature. And there's actually, like I think it's 95% of each island is designated to preserved land, and then that other small percentage is just for the towns being built. And I ended up bringing my skateboard. And there were skate parks on all the islands, which blew my mind. And it was really amazing because I met all these kids there that barely spoke any English. My Spanish is pretty mediocre, so had these very disjointed conversations, but they got so excited about my skateboard. Have never seen kids that hyped on a skateboard because they hadn't seen one from the US. Before. So they're asking, how old is the skateboard? How much do those cost in the US? And they were asking to take photos with it, taking photos of it. They were so hyped. So I ended up donating my board because they all share skateboards, too, which was beautiful that it's a skate park of kids and they're all just like, letting each other use their skateboards. There's no these tiny islands where everyone knows everyone. So I left the board with them, gave them some wheels and stickers, and one of them has me on WhatsApp? So we were chatting and they were asking if I could send more boards. And so I got in touch with one of their parents and we're coordinating, getting donations to get them a bunch of skateboards there in the Galapagos. And that's been something I've been, I think, wanting to do for a long time, some kind of giving back outside of just helping people with a motion design project or doing a demo, actually just giving to a community that's really meaningful to me. And the skateboarding community is super meaningful. And just seeing how much that one skateboard was life changing for them, I was like, okay, we got to because the skateboards they had were not going to cut it. They were like the little penny boards, really tiny plastic ones that don't even really have a tail, so you can't do most skate tricks on them. So I think that's been a facet that I've wanted to embrace but was always like, oh, I got to be doing projects. [01:17:42] Speaker A: I need to focus. [01:17:43] Speaker C: And now I've got free time, so I'm going to use it to go out and enjoy nature. And now that I actually have time to sit back and look at everything, I'm like, oh, this is something I want to commit time and effort to. And I think that's been a nice facet of taking time off, is like, I get to focus more on me outside of my identity as a designer. [01:18:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you're nourishing yourself. Yeah. [01:18:09] Speaker C: Yes. [01:18:09] Speaker A: Now, do you have, like, a GoFundMe or anything up where people can help you? [01:18:14] Speaker C: So this was like I was just kind of doing it through Venmo because that's what the contact and I just posted on Instagram like, hey, friends, if you can donate anything. And a skateboard usually costs like 200 and $5260 in the US. I'm not sure what it's going to cost for them to buy it in the Galapagos, but I think I've gotten almost over $1,000 in donations from friends and people from all over the place. Some folks that skateboard, some that are friends that I just worked on design projects with and were like, oh, hey, I want to help these kids out. And it was just really beautiful to see friends come out to help. And I've thought about maybe doing a larger GoFundMe thing for maybe a larger donation thing to something around Portland. There are a couple organizations here that are involved with houseless kids that they'll go skating together. There's a group called Push Movement that does that stuff. Seeing how fulfilling it is to be doing these things, I think it's inspiring me to put more effort into being a part of those communities. And a lot of that came from talking with you, Austin, because I in school, would always ask you, hey, what's it like being a teacher? What made you choose to be a teacher? And then talking to you throughout the years on why you switched into freelancing and teaching rather than being fully on just the freelance side. And you mentioned a lot of that giving back and feeling like it's not all about your career, and I think that affected me a lot. I'm like, oh, how am I doing that? Because I freelance solo. Like, I'm not at a studio where I can help out the entry level designers. I'm not necessarily teaching. And I'm getting to that age where I'm like, I feel like I can give back and it's not going to tank my finances. [01:20:17] Speaker A: Totally. Of course, you've built a solid foundation, and you're in a place where you're like, you know your craft. Like, you're always experimenting, but you know how long something's going to take you. You know, all of that stuff. So you can say, okay, well, if I take this time and do this, then I could take that time and do that. You can really carve up your life, like, more bigger picture because you're not, like, diving in on assignment without any kind of context for how long this is going to take you, what skills you need to develop. So you've kind of arrived in your craft so you can kind of take a look around you now. [01:20:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was also interesting getting to the spot where I'm at now because I think ever since I was a teenager, I always wanted to work on a big film, like to make a movie. And I was working on a short film for a while over the past year and a half with the studio. And it's kind of in a pause right now. But what was really fascinating is the process of it was totally different than what I had imagined. Making a movie is like and you interact with producers that are always making movies and you hear their logic behind things and just like, I don't know, it made me realize a lot of like, oh, is making a film really my big pinnacle goal as a designer? Maybe the energy I'm trying to put in, because films really are the big things that inspired me outside of music performances that really make me feel something. So I always was like, oh, I need to make a film because that's where I'll get all the emotion out. But then I think this year was also like, that pivot of like, oh, the industry of making movies is way different than I thought it was coming from the outside. And once you see kind of the inner workings and all the stuff that goes into it, it's almost like running a studio where you quickly get into the delegating things, managing a lot of things. You're like, wait, I thought I was going to sit down and make a lot more. But it was kind of like a little bit of a realization for me. And I think that also pushed me into the like, well, if that's not the big thing that I'm working towards, what's the thing I want to pivot to you? So this summer has been a nice like, I'm going to step back, ask. [01:22:43] Speaker B: The question, and explore a little bit. Yeah. [01:22:47] Speaker C: And I feel like that's really healthy for a lot of artists. Whenever you get to that point of feeling financially stable and you're not constantly worrying about the next. [01:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:56] Speaker B: Ask yourself what matters and what do you need? And yeah. What's sustainable? And it is different for everybody too, which is. [01:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I know people who took a year off right after school and went and traveled Europe, and that's their kind of learning about themselves and their goals and what they want to do. And I went out of school and I was like, straight into work. It was just work for ten years straight. And then I was like, wait a minute, I kind of want to take a little self evaluation time. [01:23:29] Speaker A: I need to do that. I want to yeah, you got to. [01:23:35] Speaker C: Take the what was it didn't Sack Meister's studio do? [01:23:38] Speaker B: Was it every seven years it takes a year off or something? Something like that? [01:23:42] Speaker C: Yeah, something like that. Yeah. I feel like that was in the back of my mind with the year off thing. [01:23:47] Speaker A: I'm going to research that. [01:23:49] Speaker C: If sackmeister does it, maybe I can do it. But I just waited ten years instead of seven. [01:23:56] Speaker A: I guess he probably started at 40, so it was probably 47. [01:24:01] Speaker C: Right, cool. [01:24:05] Speaker A: That's funny. Awesome. [01:24:07] Speaker B: All right. [01:24:08] Speaker A: I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. I can't thank you enough for sharing all of this. I think there's so many information nuggets in this conversation that are going to inspire so many people. I think they're going to be just grateful that you shared all that. [01:24:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I know running a studio doesn't give you a lot of downtime, so I really appreciate you taking time to do this. And Austin, I know you're juggling freelance and teaching the students, so thank you too for know I get a couple. [01:24:43] Speaker B: Of my favorite people together and we get to chat for a bit. It's awesome. [01:24:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Hopefully I'll see you in the wintertime for a little workshop. [01:24:52] Speaker B: That's right. We're going to learn some new experimental techniques. I'm have to get a whole bunch of more new gear. [01:25:00] Speaker C: Yeah, it'll be fun. One of these little Tesla coils and start seeing how you can shock yourself, various objects. [01:25:11] Speaker A: All right, well, let's do the peace thing that Austin loves to do. Peace. [01:25:15] Speaker B: Peace. [01:25:16] Speaker C: Oh, wait, do I need it? Is it this hand? [01:25:18] Speaker B: Whichever hand you want, you go to if you want. [01:25:21] Speaker C: What's the branding here? [01:25:28] Speaker A: Thanks for listening.