Interview with Bee Grandinetti and Dorca Musseb of Panimation

[00:00:00] Speaker A: It. [00:00:00] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Aaron Strawski. [00:00:03] Speaker C: And I'm Austin Shaw. [00:00:04] Speaker A: This is between the keyframes episode 30. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Interview with Bea and Dorka of Panamation I'm really excited to talk to you guys today because, you know, Dorka, we go way back. We've worked with the studio before and we've met through people and you've introduced you're such a connector and an introducer. So I was not surprised to hear about your affiliation with Panamation. And then when you explained it to me and I explained it to Austin, we were like, oh, we should do a podcast about this. Because inclusivity is a big part of just making our field accessible, creating podcasts and content that's not just about the cool art, but also what it's like in studio culture when you show up as an intern. What does that look like? Should you be paid all these random, tiny I get very granular, very quick. But what does that mean? What does that look like? To help people feel more comfortable and more like it's. I thank you again for the introduction to Bea, who is one of the founders of Panamation. And we just wanted to chat with you ladies about not just Panamation, but yourselves and your own career and how two extraordinary people wind up involved in this extraordinary organization. So that's my open. [00:01:27] Speaker C: I was just going to say too, that you all have been on my radar for a bunch of years because of being an educator. So when I was teaching at SCAD and now I'm teaching out in Western Washington University, so just having as a resource for students and it's also been really cool to see some of my female alum participating, like Sarah Beth. Sarah beth. Morgan. I know she was. And then seeing some of the takeovers. I think it was Jennifer Estridge, I remember wasn't that long ago. And just seeing different alum who get featured in those takeovers. So it's been super cool. Great resource. Yeah, because we do have so many female trans and non binary design students. So to have representation in support is just awesome. [00:02:16] Speaker B: I have to say this new generation of artists is very open and very, I will say colorful. I don't know if that's like a great but there's like all the things all the time and it's so wonderful to see how just naturally accepting everybody is of each other. Which, you know what? In my generation that was not normal. So organizations like this have definitely been a big part of a culture shift in motion design. [00:02:46] Speaker D: Yeah, but I feel also surfing the wave, like the change was already happening and we surfed that wave as well. I think it's definitely getting a lot better even than from five years ago, I would say, or when I started 2015. There's definitely been a big shift in many ways as well. The industry is also in a weird moment right now. We can talk about many things. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Tell us about Panamation. Tell us about you all and then what Panamation is. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that would probably be a good. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Place to start for people know. [00:03:25] Speaker D: Yeah. Should I start? [00:03:28] Speaker B: Yeah, B, why don't you start? You're a founder. [00:03:30] Speaker D: Founder, yes. Different chapters, different chronologies I'm B. I am born and raised in Brazil, but currently living in Stockholm in Sweden. I worked as an animation director. I'm represented by Hornet in New York, but also freelance as a designer, animator, kind of everything in between. So that's what I do as my day to day job. And I'm also one of the co founders of Panimation, which started in London in 2015. And I co founded it together with Lynn Fritz and hedwig Alberg. And yeah, we can talk more about it later, but we started in 2015 and Panimation is we like to call it like a multiplatform community for women, trans and nonbinary people working with animation and motion graphics. And we have quite like a spread out sort of presence. We have a directory which is Panimation TV that people can use to find talent and people to hire and people to invite to line up in a festival, for example, as well. And then we have our Instagram account where we feature different talent every week. And we also have actually like we have a Facebook group. I know that Facebook is not like trendy popular these days anymore, but that was our humble beginning. That's where everything started. It was a Facebook group originally, so we have that still for people who are still into Facebook. And we do have the opposite of public, but we have a Slack channel that is internal, a little Slack channel that is kind of like invite only. That I think has been one of the most active channels these days. I feel people are very gravitating towards black these days. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, everybody's on there naturally. Anyway for just well, I was going. [00:05:38] Speaker C: To say too, because I used to do Facebook groups for classes. Right. We'd have this sort of extended classroom, but same like kind of the social political climate changed. Now I do it all on slack. Right. I do my class. Extended classroom on. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Okay, Dorka, why don't you tell us about you? [00:06:03] Speaker A: Sure. My name is Dorka Museb and I was freelancing for a very long time, as you know, Erin, because I worked at your studio. And then about 2017, one of B's friends, Emily, I always mispronounce her name. This year Emily Suvambish was coming over to New York and asked people to get together and I organized it and ended up being like maybe seven people we started with in New York City and then quickly spread. And so we asked B and Lynn and Hempig if we could do a New York chapter. And it started just growing. The need was there, as B said. Definitely the need was there. And we did our own little Facebook group started out that way. Still there. And then eventually we started slack, be more on slack. We have, like, our little New York City channel and we make sure and we also during the pandemic, because we couldn't get together, we also did a little newsletter just to keep up with yeah, we did a little newsletter just to keep up with local New York events and things of that nature that were happening and to spotlight some other people. [00:07:22] Speaker B: That's great idea. I love newsletters. I know some people hate them, but I think that they're great. I think it's a great reminder that people are out there doing their thing. I don't know, it reminds me of almost Real Mail. It feels more. [00:07:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:43] Speaker D: I have to say the New York City chapter is a lot more organized. We had a face in London that were like in the groove, but then the girls are always like super good at organizing events and everything. [00:07:57] Speaker C: I was going to add are there other chapters? [00:08:00] Speaker D: I feel like yeah, there are other because we have the main group on Facebook where you know, everyone's kind of there. But then because conversations started to get there was a need for conversations to be more localized like, oh, should we organize this and this event and maybe talk about city specifics kind of stuff. So people started to kind of like subdivide into groups. So I know know, we had the one in London, we had one in New York, we had one in Sweden, we had one in Ukraine as well. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Oh wow, that's great. [00:08:36] Speaker D: Because we went there for a talk to talk about animation before the war. We're actually all of us quite devastated with the news and everything because we've been there as well. We have one in Italy. I don't remember all the chapters, but obviously in the US. Because there's so many people doing motion in the US. We had so many groups divided by cities. One in Toronto as well. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Yes, I believe so. Berlin, Toronto, italy, I know had one on one point, I believe. There's talk about doing one in La as well lately, but I'm not sure where that's at. [00:09:16] Speaker C: I think Pacific Northwest. I'm thinking Washington, portland. Seattle. Portland. Vancouver. I'll motivate my students. [00:09:29] Speaker D: Yeah, the whole idea. And we even have guidelines about starting a chapter in your own city and stuff because we really try to keep it as decentralized as possible. Even though, of course, we have our core beliefs, our values, the way that we like to do things. And we try to keep a consistency within that and know, whenever there's a chapter that is actually more active, like New York City, for example, we try to really establish a really close relationship with them to make sure that we're aligned in our values and how we handle things, how we handle conflict. Even though there hasn't been many conflicts. [00:10:07] Speaker B: As soon as you make a thing it's got good things and bad things or challenges because you're putting yourself out there and that more people get involved, the more messy it can get, but also the more beautiful it can. [00:10:25] Speaker A: It's been quite incredible to see the conflict resolves within Panimation because a lot of people are very protective of the space and so they'll resolve it within themselves. Very rarely do we have to step in. [00:10:42] Speaker B: That's great. [00:10:43] Speaker A: They'll come in and then by the time I get to it, somebody else has already answered and it's already sort of calmed down. There are certain topics that are still very hot, but for the most part yeah, I think that people are very protective of our space themselves because they enjoy being there. [00:11:02] Speaker D: I feel like it became such a nurturing, open space with a lot of people that have so many good intentions. That I feel is like throughout eight years now. [00:11:13] Speaker B: Wow. [00:11:13] Speaker D: 2015, 2023 now. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:16] Speaker D: So throughout eight years, I think I can count in one hand, like maybe we had top five situations that we had to intervene as admins, something like that, honestly, because it's been like really in a sense it's really good. It's really low maintenance because we don't have to be policing people and it doesn't get too intense ever. [00:11:38] Speaker B: That's awesome. That's great. So it's interesting you're coming up on ten years and you're a global organization. Any plans to do something big and special for that? Maybe a speaking thing. [00:11:56] Speaker D: So many dreams, so little time, so. [00:11:59] Speaker B: Little money that's the know, it's like part of some of my questions were, how do you fund this? Because it's one thing to have a Facebook group, but then to build a website, to maintain it, to do all that, it grows. And I don't think people realize how much it is to maintain something like that. Maybe talking a little bit about that and then we could talk about ten year anniversary. [00:12:26] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, that's always been sort of a tricky subject for us because when we started in London, like me, Lynn and Hedwig, we all had our careers. It's not like we were making animation our full time thing and we never intended to because that was the thing as well. That was really strong with us is that it has never been about the money and that was a core value as well. We want to keep having our careers because they're really meaningful to us and this is a side gig and we put in the time that we can. All of this is like volunteer work, so we're also never too harsh on ourselves. We try our best, we're doing our best with the time that we have, the spare time that we have. And I think that's one of the reasons why we managed to keep it for so long and not burn out and not get too crazy as well, and also not let the group lose its core values because I think money I've seen so many initiatives that they just money ruins everything. It starts as something so pure and wanting to promote change and create this warm space and then things just lose their virtue really because it starts to become more about making money and paying the bills rather than gathering people together and doing the things. But that's been sort of like a double edged sword in a sense because Pennymation has never been a full time job for us. Of course, if we were working with it full time, we would be able to dedicate a lot more, putting more effort and maybe organize all the wild dreams that we would love to be able to organize. But in terms of really running costs, it's not like we have a lot. There is probably paying like a Google Drive and then the domain and there are some basic bills that we managed to cover now because we have a Patreon, we don't have a lot of patrons. It would be nice to have more so we could dream a little bit bigger. But what we have manages to pay our bills. But in the beginning it was the three of us putting money from our own pockets into all of those things. And then I know for example, that you can talk more about that because you girls in New York, you're a lot you know, when Dorca was organizing events in New York, she was like chasing sponsorships. [00:14:51] Speaker B: Well, I was going to ask but that seems like a. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah, we do have the Patreon. Hint, hint. We have a patreon. [00:15:04] Speaker D: Yep. [00:15:04] Speaker A: Come help us. Come help us. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Well, who Patreons? Are they companies like mine? Like Swarovsky and Bug and places like that? Or is it individual people or is it more tech? Is it like Google and all these companies? [00:15:21] Speaker D: I wish Google are you hearing give us cash, give us a little like, I would say the majority is more individuals. But you do find a couple of studios that because they're studios as well, they managed to contribute a bit more. And it was really great the moments that we've been able to push a little bit more about promoting Patreon because all of that takes energy. Like putting the word out there, hey. [00:15:49] Speaker A: We have a Patreon, blah blah. [00:15:50] Speaker D: And whenever we managed to put the word out there, we did manage to collect it a little bit more and then that's when we managed to put out a partnership with School of Motion and we gather some scholarships to give to that's one of the things we would like to do a lot more of like scholarships. A wild dream is like collecting enough money to give out grants for people to make their own short films. That would be so amazing. And then of course, a festival, but. [00:16:23] Speaker B: Right on. What are the benefits of starting a passion project? [00:16:28] Speaker C: Yeah, I was going to ask because it sounds like because animation for you all is more of an advocation, right? It's not your full time gigs and in a lot of ways it sounds like almost like doing service, like professional service, industry service. Do you find that almost like a passion project? Does it help with your sustainability for your own careers and kind of refuel you? [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for my part, as I mentioned, it started out very small and quickly grew because there was a need there. People were just, can we have this every month? I usually just listen to what people want when know admin in NYC. And once there was sort of like an established and enough people knew about it, then we were able to slow down the monthly meetups and do them quarterly instead. But I usually just listen to what people had to say. As B said, it's very much like, yes, I'm an admin, but most of the time my role, I feel, was gathering the flock or gathering the people and they will themselves come up to me and say, hey, can we have a picnic? And I'll be like, sure, I'll announce it and make sure that everybody's there, but go ahead. Or people will ask us to do portfolio reviews. Same thing. I'll make the graphics, make sure people are there, be sure that I announce it. But for the most part, it was very much driven by the people within that community. If there was a screening that they wanted to do, if there was a museum trip they wanted to do in OIC, there's a lot to you know, there's like this cool I think the Museum of TV and Film, for example, has a lot of yeah, it's in Queens. So you had a lot of things going on there with the Muppets and all kinds of great, incredible spaces that are constantly putting I don't think they do it in live anymore. But we had one of my favorite film festival, little Film Festival. It was every Tuesday of a month of every month. What is it called? I'll remember later, but we used to go just to support that. And there was so many animators there, fun films. I really loved going to that one in particular because it was films from a lot of different countries and so you got to see different perspectives and different ways of storytelling rather than the usual I remember watching films from Russia and Iran and things like that, and we used to go as everybody yeah. That was representative of other spaces and other cultures, rather than what you usually there was. There's just a lot to do in New York City. So that's probably why we were so active in many ways because people were excited and wanted to see one another. I remember when we first started people telling me I didn't realize there were this many people from my background here or that look like me or that identify as I do in motion graphics, because there was a lot of isolation. I remember one of the first things was realizing that there was just like one per studio type of deal when it came to women trans nonbinary, just one per studio. And so the gathering together of the animators gave the opportunity for people to meet one another. And then we started sort of helping each other out. And whenever there was a gig coming up, there was more than one in the studio now. And that helped a lot. And I still think that's one of our busiest channels on Slack is the Jobs channel, that we try to ensure that people are getting hired and that people are people from different backgrounds and different points of view are the ones that will pass it along. [00:20:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, so much about hiring is about even as a person that hires, so much of it is like references. Like, I know Austin. Austin's going to recommend somebody. I know dorca. Dorca is going to recommend somebody. And there's this natural thing that happens in the hiring process where people hire people who look and talk and act and have the similar background to them. And I think that that's natural. It's not right, but it's natural. So if there is just that one other we'll say other person at a studio and they're recommending people, that's the best thing that can happen. That's the best thing is people recommending people because that's how things flow. You're always going to take a recommendation more seriously than a cold email. You just are. There's something innately human about that. So having these kinds of organizations, having these kind of meetups making relationships outside of the construct of the place where you're at is so important. I always say these are your future bosses and collaborators and all of that. All these people that you're going to meet. It's so important. And that's how things change over time. [00:21:54] Speaker D: Suddenly you connect and you know who to recommend. I remember when I started when I was a student, actually, and I was looking up like, okay, women directors. That's when I realized actually that there was so few women. I was, why, when he goes to the rosters, it's only dudes. And I knew of Julia Pott, that's the woman director that you know. And then when we started connecting at Panimation and meeting in person and realized there's more of us, then suddenly I could recommend someone, like very specific stuff. Someone that did was crazy character cell animator, someone that was very specific, like motion typography. Then it's not only knowing several directors, but also everyone in different positions and really good people as well. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, the talent is definitely there. The talent is absolutely there. And I'm just happy that the directory exists because the talent definitely exists is there. [00:22:54] Speaker B: Let's talk about support for new hires. [00:22:59] Speaker C: One of my student questions that I think kind of fits into this part of the discussion was because it sounds like the Slack group, is this real kind of continuous support? Because one of their questions when I told them, I'm like, hey, I'm going to be talking to some of the folks at Panimation and want to hear from you all if you have questions. But was how do you support members of the community after the hiring process, like once they're already in a job in helping them maintain equity in the workplace, is there support or is there forums that this is what's happening at work, what do I do type of situations. [00:23:36] Speaker D: I want to say there is like a dedicated channel for that, but I think it just happens very organically in the beginning. I remember when we started the group, it was kind of because of that, it was just like a little bit of backstory of how we started because it connects. But me, Lynn and hedwig were really close friends and we all came to London kind of around the same time and all very fresh in the beginning of our careers, like doing internships or junior positions. And as good friends do, we would gather on a Friday for beers and talk about stuff and complain about work. That's what you do with the friends. And then as we started to complain about some work stuff, we realized that a lot of the experiences that we were going through were not isolated. It was not just me, it was also, oh, they were experiencing similar things by being at male dominated, white male dominated studios. It felt so great and validating, like, okay, I'm not going crazy. You're also experiencing something very similar. And this just felt so great to be able to be heard, to feel validated and also owning your kind of frustration and your anger, like, okay, yeah, no, this isn't fair. Why do we get this different treatment than everyone else? [00:24:59] Speaker A: And et cetera. [00:25:01] Speaker D: And then we would vent about all of that and then after a certain point we were like, okay, complaining is great, but what does it help with? Can we do something better than just complaining? And it felt so precious to have that space for the three of us and we're like, well, why don't we make it like a Facebook group and a community so more people we can connect with more? In the beginning, Panimation was actually called pun animation, which we thought was a classy combination of the slang punani and punani and animation. So yeah, I don't know if listeners know, but punani is a slang for vagina. So we just made a joke out of it, combined it, and in the beginning the group was initially for women in animation. So we started that, started inviting other women that we knew back then that worked in London as well. And that's kind of how it grew organically, like our friends inviting their friends started with three and then they grew to I actually have to check the numbers these days of how big the Facebook group is, but over five k, I think. But just answering to your question, Austin, I think the group started with people kind of opening up. It was really a safe space, especially because in the beginning as well, much smaller as well, but it was just this safe space for people to okay, I'm going through this at work. How would you handle or how do I negotiate my salary? Is this a good amount? Or in talking about day rates, it was such an important place to talk about the financial stuff and difficult situations at work, sometimes not naming things, not naming the places or the person, like, I'm going through this at work, and what would you do about it, or how would you reply to this email, for example? So there was a lot of that, like just people opening up about whatever hardship they are going through at still. [00:26:54] Speaker A: I think that's one of the most major questions I still get is the rates and how to especially since New York City has a lot of the whole system, still very much a whole system in major cities. So we get most of the questions. A lot of them have to do with like, am I charging enough? Am I charging too much? Am I charging this? There's still so much fear. Not fear, but nobody's sure of where there should be. Yeah, it's major in our space. [00:27:29] Speaker B: Do you have tips for students? [00:27:32] Speaker C: I'd say even with students, too. This is something I've seen historically, having taught full time for my 13th year, ten years at SCAD, three years were here at Western, and negotiation too, especially like as they're getting offers. And it was something that I would discuss with the career advisors as well, is that often the male students would always negotiate, always, no matter what, could I have more? Can I have more? And that the female students would tend to just not negotiate. Here's the offer, they take it. And it's been this how to advocate and how to help students advocate and learn how to negotiate and understand. And it's part of the process, I think, that falls along with the rates too. And I don't know if you have any thoughts or tips for students. [00:28:26] Speaker A: I would say that to your question earlier about how to support, it kind of goes into this. It's not just recommending people. It's not just bringing people in. It's also making sure that they're comfortable, allowing them to make mistakes. I think that for some OD reason, I think the way I think about it is usually what happens outside in larger society. Studios become a microcosm of that. They become a microcosm of what's currently happening. And if the people at the top usually set the tone, and if that's not important, to them or it's not something that they prioritize, then it's going to fall by the sideway. And what ends up happening is that the person of color or other genders come in, they're not going to feel comfortable or there's no leeway for them to make mistakes. And I remember when I was more junior and when I was starting, I can speak for myself and say that if I made a mistake, my fear was always like, I make a mistake, I'm never going to get called back. And sure enough, it happened in some spaces. I didn't get the leeway and I didn't get the sort of like the patience and anything that was required for me to make mistakes and learn that maybe other people do. And so that's one way of supporting is ensuring that people give people leeway if they're more junior. But I would say on a more senior level, it also happens where if you are put in charge of something, again, from personal experience, I will get more pushback. The incredible amount of pushback that I will get because I'm in a position of power is different. And so having people like white males that are my state position sort of support what I'm saying or reinforce the fact that I'm here for a reason, it's always very helpful because when you come in at any position or if you're coming in at a position that is more senior, it is an automatic. And again, it's just what happens, it's just a societal thing that then gets translated into the microcosm of a studio. This is why it's more subconscious. It's not like people are doing it on purpose, right? But most of the time, the pushback, the questioning and all of that wouldn't happen if it was somebody who's supposed to be in power. So that's one thing that I would say, that if you wanted to help or wanted to reassure, one of the things to do when it's a more senior person is to be the backup. If the person says she said what she said, she said what she said, and we're doing what she said. Just back the person up and ensure that there's communication and that if somebody sidesteps. I've seen a lot of other spaces where they sidestep and go to the person, to the other person, because it's the one that's supposed to be in power. And it's like talk to them, direct them back because those are like small things. This is where microaggressions come from. Those are small things that will help the person who is different background feel a little bit more at ease that you have their back connecting to. [00:32:01] Speaker D: When you said about particularly about the financial side of it, like how you can help someone get a bit of a boost and more confidence as well. In that sense, I feel like, particularly for me, what happened when I was a student, I was starting my career. I had this friend, pretty well known person in the industry, Claudio Salas, and he's like a lot more senior than I was, million times more talented. But it was great to have him as a friend because he was really pushing me and he would always encourage me to like, no, but you should up your weight, try 50 pounds more. I was like, really? And then I was like, and it's stupid, but you do need, I feel, someone who's more senior to make you aware of your worth. Because when you're that low in self confidence, it's so hard to know how much is your worth. It's still hard, but I feel especially in the beginning, it's really hard to know how much you're worth. And it was really great to have him pushing me. And then I would write emails like, oh, my day rate is like this, hit send and then close the computer. Because I was terrified of like they're never going to say yes, but they did. And I kept on going. And that was so important to me that this is what I try to do to people now that I'm in a position that I can do that as well. It's like payback, and hopefully that keeps the chain of movement going. But it happened to me that I was directing a project and hiring freelancers and stuff, and freelancers that I knew. So I would ask the team to book those people, contact them and stuff, but then I would go in the backstage and I was like, hey, I want to get you for this project. How much is your bay rate, by the way? And they would say something outrageously low and I would be like, no, girl, this is like, you're going to up your rate by like $200 because you're insanely good and you're worth so much more. So I'm sorry, I'm not allowing you to charge this much because I know we can pay and I know how much you're worth and you should be charging this much. And I know that after this they started charging more because they were just the moment that someone agrees that you're worth, that, that's, that why would you compromise for lower? But I feel like studios usually don't have that mentality because of course they're going to want the cheapest possible outcome. So it's up to us. If we really want to change the game, we have to do it from the inside and we have to go in the backstage, move our little one by one. [00:34:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a lot more like and again, it's a societal issue more than anything, but I think I do see that panimators need a little bit more reassurance and validation because some are fine, some are like, yes, I'm worth this, and great, go ahead. But then I've seen the people who are really confident and know their worth then help other Panamators find that, which is what you said about paying back. I think in my case, that's how I view it as well, is sort of like paying back all the help that I got from other people that did take me under their wing and were like, come with me here, child, let me take you with me. So I'm grateful to those people and I'm grateful to be able to pay it back because that's an important part of funimation for me. [00:35:32] Speaker B: To talk. If there were an equal number of white guys in the mix, people wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable saying what they need to say. So it's lovely that an organization exists and a group of people where you guys connect and just have these honest conversations about value, worth, how to level up in an industry, talk about when you need to move on versus when it's appropriate to stay, all of that stuff. Those are really complicated, challenging things that maybe even family can't help with because they don't understand how casual our industry is. You know what I mean? There's so many dynamics. It's not like working at a bank where there's things in place. Most places don't even have HR. [00:36:20] Speaker D: Explain the whole system to your partner who's a doctor. [00:36:25] Speaker A: Sure. [00:36:27] Speaker B: So it is nice to have this place where that nuance people don't kind of have to get to that same level. They have to learn all this weird idiosyncrasies where they're just going to be like, what kind of weird industry do you work in? They're just going to understand. I think that's some of the kind of hard, complicated, underpinning also of what goes on. It's not a normal industry. It's strange. And there's lots of different places people can work. We were talking about studios, but now you can work directly at brands. You could be freelance. You can freelance for studios and brands. You could go out on your own and be a director like Hornet, like you be there's a lot of different ways it can totally work for yeah. [00:37:09] Speaker A: I think I'm highly amused by since Panimation is such an international space, I'm always amused by the Europeans going like, what do you mean, health insurance? Why do you have to worry so much about that? And in the US, we're like, it is very expensive. [00:37:38] Speaker D: Student debt as well is a hot. [00:37:40] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, oh yeah. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Let's talk about interrupting. [00:37:46] Speaker C: Well, I was going to share a quick anecdote along what you were all just sharing and talk about these sort of societal, I don't know, structures, norms. But we had a conversation. We had a conversation with Sophie, sophie Lee a little ways back, and Erin and Sophie were talking about how learning not to apologize in work conversations. And that kind of hit me. And I bought that as a discussion topic to my students because in my classes I'm teaching a generalist design program and I teach motion classes primarily in that we're 80, 90% female to male ratio and we have a fair amount of non binary and trans as well. But presenting this to the students, trying to kind of promote some conversation. One of my female students said that in every social situation she has to gauge if there's room for her to talk or if she's just going to get talked over. And I looked around dorca you're shaking your head? Yes, I saw that. And I'm looking at all the other female students, they're all shaking their heads. Yes. And there's maybe like a handful of male students in the classroom and I just don't think they got it. It hit me really hard. I'm still processing it. It really hit me with because I just think I've taken for granted my whole life that there's like, oh, if I want to talk, there's a space there and that to really see that. I don't know, I guess maybe this goes into the idea of how can someone like me be of service, right? How can white men be of service? And I know you've mentioned a few things, but if there are other suggestions. [00:39:45] Speaker A: Or thoughts I think probably the panometers in NYC have heard me say this a couple of times. So they're like, oh, there she goes again. But I would say, like, I remember back in the Obama years, there was a meeting before the meeting with all of the because there was a lot of female people in the cabinet, right? And so I believe there was a meeting before the meeting from what I understand, and they would be like, okay, I'm going to say this and you need to back me up. And then this person echoes it and this other person echoes it because it's so much harder to get your ideas through that if one person said it and then the other person backed it up and echoed it until and same thing with the male colleagues. It's like they will grab their male colleagues and be like, can you back me up? And so that this way when we go into the meeting, it'll be heard because if they said it on their own and you get that and I think this is very common. I think this is something that we've seen in Fanimation where oh yeah, I said the idea and then a couple of minutes later somebody else said it, a male said it and it was like his idea and I had just said it in order to avoid that. Again, backing people up is the best method. It's like if you hear somebody that said something and the conversation is going too fast and you got lost and it's like echo it back. What is it that you said? Or can I just listen to what you just said? Or what idea was it that you wanted to talk about? Because I think that's again, the best way is just echoing the thing that needs to be said, it's very interesting. And again, the societal norms where you fall in that societal ladder also matters. So we all know the darker their skin and other genders and things of that nature. We already have a hard unfortunately, like I said, it's societal norms that translate whether we want to or not is sometimes subconscious, sometimes very much conscious. But for the most part, what I've seen is very much subconscious of that microcosm that becomes and next thing you know, these things are happening and, oh, wow, I didn't even realize. So it's being proactive about ensuring that people from different backgrounds and people from different colors and people from different genders are heard and that they have the opportunity to speak. And to be honest, another thing that I can say for my part, when I did get that sort of voice or that space, sometimes you don't know what to do with it. So give us a minute because then it's so unusual for us to actually be heard that then we're like so that you're in the headlights, we put in the spot. So there's also that sort of shyness that comes with it that eventually will go away as we feel more and more safer and safer in the space, I would say. [00:42:47] Speaker C: I had a student, I was teaching a drawing class in the winter and one of the students, it was like the first time that she had ever done gesture drawing. And she's like, I'm so frustrated. And I was like, well, have you done gesture drawing before? No. I'm like, So do you just expect to be awesome at everything? The very first time we do it, we made a laugh out of it. But there is that kind of a lot of students, even myself, I kind of always expect I'm pretty harsh on myself when I'm not the best, but I definitely see it in the female students. Just super high expectations. [00:43:25] Speaker D: But also putting yourself so down as well. I'm super guilty of it, but I been trying to improve. But always talking so low of yourself. I've done this tiny little thing like using this kind of weak language to describe your own stuff. Not that you have to be a douchebag about it and boost yourself, but you also don't need to undermine yourself so much because there's yeah, I think. [00:43:48] Speaker A: That'S something that is learned as you go along. I find that changes as more confidence comes in. Instead of this apologetic way of speaking of like, I did this thing, I think it's okay that changes as it goes along. But you're right. Even at a higher level, it still sneaks in somehow, sometimes. Yeah, even at a higher level, it's still oh, yeah, like pre apologize, like. [00:44:20] Speaker B: A little bit of what Austin was talking about, like apologizing, but when you don't have anything to be sorry about. But to your point, dorca that you were making before. One way other people can really help make sure that people are heard know when we get excited and we talk and I actually do this a lot. I don't know why I have the confidence to do it, but I'll talk over somebody, be like, oh yeah, it's really important if you're in a room and somebody is being talked over, not necessarily to be like, stop it, don't talk over her because you don't want to mess the flow of the conversation up. But when that person is done talking, be like, now let's let this person finish their point. You know what I mean? Take it back to that person and that'll make them feel validated. And it'll also kind of say to the other person that talked over them that that's not cool, but it's not in a reprimandy way. It's like in a very positive way because I feel like some people are worried about looking like a jerk for stepping in or being weird about it. There's ways of doing all this that isn't weird at all. That validates people's existence and contribution and that's one way of doing it. Okay, let the person finish their point, but don't forget to come back and say, I was really interested in what you were saying. Please finish. That's hard to do. Sometimes you have to take a note. Like I'll see that happen with clients all the time and they're talking over each other and somebody's kind of getting bullied out of the conversation and I'll be like, oh Cynthia, what were you saying there? I want to circle back to that. There was an interesting insight there that you have a friend for life after you do something like that. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Well, there's also I find myself if I do get your attention, I speak very fast. I try to get all my thoughts in because I have your attention for that 1 second. So I also am aware that sometimes getting yeah is an exciting conversation because we're creatives and we are passionate about what we want and we have so many ideas. But at the same time, it's like I feel at times that I tend to then go a little too fast or tell my ideas as fast as possible. I find myself having to speak for as long as I have your attention. So I'm going to just get everything in. So it's something that I've had to work on because on my end, because it's very difficult sometimes for me to get the attention of the person. So I do find that at times when we do get the attention and when we do have that space tend to just go very fast or vomit it yeah. And then that's also seen like that's strange. You need to slow down. [00:47:04] Speaker B: I wasn't thinking about this too. It's traditional. Everybody has like a yearly review with their employer. It's very unhealthy to save all of if you have things going on that need addressing. I would say it's very unhealthy to save all of it up and just like, in one meeting. So you really have to learn a way to create open dialogue so that doesn't feel, even though you might be the person being inflicted on, bring it to the people that can create change slower, easier, help them, help you through the process. Don't just dump it on them and be like, what? This isn't something that's easy to correct. And so you got to give them space to do it. Just say, hey, did you notice that? That was really interesting, what happened. Next time, if you can remind somehow people not to keep cutting me off in a conversation, that would be great. Doing that with your creative director in the moment shortly after the meeting so that it's fresh in their brain. But going to a yearly meeting with, like, on June 3, eight months ago, this happened. That's not going to work. No matter how organized you are, all of that stuff, and no matter how right you are, that's not going to go in your favor. It's better to just kind of do these very little things that help people make corrections with you along the way, with the team, for your benefit along the way. It'll be very helpful. I know as a leader, I would appreciate that because sometimes we just don't know and we're not seeing it, and we need to be helped along. [00:48:37] Speaker A: That's a fair point. But also, I think it's a matter of approachability as well. Is there comfort to approach to begin with? [00:48:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Does a person feel like they're going to be listened to or are they going to be dismissed? Are their concerns going to be dismissed? Which happens a lot. At least it used to happen more. Right. Maybe not as much now because there's a bit more awareness. But before it would have been like, oh, you're overreacting. And a lot of I think when B talked about at the beginning of Panimation, the questions that were being asked and the things that were being brought up, it probably was because of that, because it was sort of like, is it me? Am I overreacting to this? Am I seeing the things in different space? And management will be like, yeah, you are overreacting. I don't see it that way. So it was reinforced from the top. And so approachability and ensuring that. And that goes back to being comfortable. Right. Making the person hurt, uncomfortable to begin with. [00:49:45] Speaker D: I do have a good anecdote as well, to illustrate what you're asking about how white men can help, because it happened to me, and it was like I was already kind of, like, a bit more senior. I was working as a freelancer at this big studio in London, art directing projects and, yeah, tell stories involving Claudio for some reason, but he's also in this one and also another example of a good white boy doing what he's supposed to do, but also very beautifully done. So I was in this studio and I started actually a couple of weeks before him. He was going to join as an animation lead, and I was art directing. And that's just to say sometimes it doesn't matter what level of seniority you join. Maybe you think like, oh, if I'm more senior, I'm going to be more respected or people are going to treat me nicer because I've been around for a while and I'm experienced. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Not necessarily the case. [00:50:41] Speaker D: So I step into the studio and in this project, it's like a bunch of dudes that they are already having their thing going on, kind of clicky with each other and stuff. And I, for two weeks have a really hard time. I kind of get introduced to the team if you know me in person, I'm a very social, open person. But it was so hard just to get in and find a little breach to get accepted. So I was like going by myself, having said lunches every day all alone in a corner. And I was like, okay, I guess this is going to be my life now for a couple of weeks. And then Claudio arrives and he knows the dudes. He's already kind of friends with the dudes, but he's also friends with me. And I think a lot of what men can do is turn your radar on and read the room and be aware of your power in the room and sometimes the social power as well and bridge the connections because that's what he did. He has such a talent for that as well, like reading the room and knowing his level of seniority, knowing his social power as well. So he would go around with not even just me, including me, but all the interns. Everyone like, hey, do you want to go for lunch? What you're doing there? Oh, that's so cool. He just has this energy, but not only because it's natural, but it's because it's a trait that he trained himself to be that attentive, to be that inclusive, and he knows the power that he has and he uses in such a good way. So suddenly I shifted from being a loser art director in the corner that no one's having lunch with to suddenly the whole team started going for lunches together. And it was a huge team of people. And that was one man doing that job. But even though I was an art director, I didn't have the social power to do that because no one knew me. I wasn't respected in that particular setup. I was the stranger. It didn't matter how senior I was or not. So when you say about what can men do, this is one, it looks like a simple thing, but not really. It takes the radar being turned on, the social abilities to do that. But that's a beautiful thing that men can do. [00:52:57] Speaker B: I totally agree with that. Totally agree. As simple as offering somebody to lunch, right? What made you start Panamation? [00:53:09] Speaker C: I was going to ask too, and maybe in the other side of this, because hearing that story, B, and then dorca from both of you, the community that's been built up and the feelings you get around the community. But I'm curious, B, for what was maybe some of that. I know we kind of top line talked about it, but maybe what were the impetus? What was it like before Panamation? That was just that we got to do something. [00:53:43] Speaker D: Got to do something. What was the fire? I kind of already remember while I was studying at Hyper here in Stockholm and back in the days, the way that I would get to be exposed to new things, like I would go on vimeo and I would like things to add to my library and add references and stuff. And I was going through vimeo and I was like, just collecting like, this is so cool, this is amazing, blah, blah, blah. And then I started to notice that from a hundred things that I liked, three were made by women. And I was like, Why? How? Why don't I see women as directors? So even as a student, that started to bug me, in a sense. And then jumping in the industry, realizing that I was surrounded by men and just getting like, day to day micro frustrations. For example, like, I was in a studio doing an internship, and then I would be doing something in my screen that I thought it was, this is cool, this is decent, I'm improving. I was kind of happy with myself. And then two other dudes would be beside me. Maybe one was an intern as well. The other one was a bit more senior. And then the intern would be doing something that, to be honest, wasn't even that cool. But then the more senior guy would be like, dude, that's so cool, blah, blah, blah. Like building up on the broy, just getting validation. And I would almost want to turn my screen as well. Do you see what I'm doing as well? Do I get a cookie too, or. [00:55:15] Speaker A: Is it just a dude that gets. [00:55:16] Speaker D: The applause and the cookie? That's one example that I have very clear in my mind. But it would be like little things every day of not feeling involved, not feeling acknowledged, not getting enough feedback. A lot of frustrations around that. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Such exalt. [00:55:40] Speaker A: Well, I actually went to school a long while back, and for me to even get a foot in the industry took about four years to begin with. Granted, 2008 was in there somewhere, so to be fair but it took a very much longer time for me to even get in. And as I went along, a lot of the times it was difficult to get any recognition or any confidence that I could do the work. Or as you said, even if I'm senior, I come in and it's like, oh yeah, that's great that they have you here, but we're still not going to acknowledge how senior you so which was refreshing. When I talked to Erin at first, the first time around, and Erin was like, it's obvious how senior you are. I was like, I've never heard that ever with somebody. Yes, that was really refreshing to hear. Thank you. [00:56:46] Speaker B: But I was just playing like, okay, we don't have to start with conversation here. You're senior, right? [00:56:56] Speaker A: That was not the case. Many times I'm thinking about what was it like pre and yeah, I think things started getting a little bit better, I would say. Yeah, after like 2012, 2013 or so, maybe. But I think this is when the industry also started opening up. It a little bit more from my perspective, from my experience, mind you, I'm a peasant. So if people started sharing how to do things more and doing more tutorials and things were a little bit more available because at the very beginning, I would say the early mid 2000s is when I was mid to late 2000s, it was very much like bro and people just weren't sharing how would you do something? And so for me, it was a little bit better. That's when it started getting a little bit better. And then once Panimation came along, for me, it just got better and better for me to be able to navigate spaces and how to even have the conversations that need to be had without the frustration getting in the way. Right. So asking the questions in Panimation about how to handle certain things does help to navigate those spaces. And as far as what you said, Austin, I'm not surprised that there's like 80% to 90% women trans and nonbinary in your class. But then I think, again, this is one that's a little old, but I remember back in 2018, there was a study about direct female directors. You remember the study I'm referring to? Right. It's nice that I think it was a study where it was back then it was 60%, where of animation students were female, but then they will go into producing instead of creating because they were pushed in that direction instead, which is never the creative is over here and then you go over there. So it's interesting to see how much has changed. But I can say previous to that, it was very difficult to as I said, even at the beginning, we started Panimation NYC in 2017 and it was still very much like, oh, there is this many in New York City. What do you mean? There's other people that look like me? And it's because it was basically one per studio. [00:59:14] Speaker C: No, I mean I got my start in the very early 2000s in New York City studios like Curious pictures and early days of loyal Casper, all those shops around the New York area. And that was exactly it. It was female producers, 90% male creatives. And then every once in a while, like a female creative. I've seen it change, but it was really entrenched for a long time like that. [00:59:45] Speaker B: I think part of the help is that the demand for artists is through the roof. Especially in that period that you're talking about, like 2012. You couldn't find enough artists. So I think it kind of forced people out of their comfort zone. Just the whole economics of the situation. So whether you like it or not, you got to get somebody on this box that can create something. I think just like the explosion of our industry from a need perspective has helped drive and then certainly just being able to access portfolios online, it's much more like you don't necessarily have to wait for people to find you. You can go find people, I think. So that has helped the situation drastically. But yeah, everything you guys are talking about really resonates. [01:00:39] Speaker A: He just took me back to my early days of dropping off DVDs. [01:00:44] Speaker B: I remember going and being like, I'm here. Here's my book. Can I talk to somebody? Like in New York, in London, like everywhere I just went, that's what you like. How else oh my God, that could have happened. [01:00:57] Speaker C: I did the DVDs. I had one step before that, which was the VHS tapes too. I did that. I think you had something you were going to say before. [01:01:10] Speaker D: Oh, no. But now the conversation got so nobody's. Just that. I remember another little anecdote early days in male dominated studios. I mean, I can tell you, but you can edit often if it's too many anecdotes. But I remember being at the studio surrounded by dudes. I was the only woman. There was another woman who was a producer, actually. And I was there doing an internship. And then one day I didn't have much to do, so I was just doing my own thing, like doing practicing a walk cycle. And I would do this thing of like because sometimes when you're animating for too long, you kind of get blind to your own animation and you need like, I need a time off. I'm going to make some tea. And I just left it playing because sometimes I like going back to the computer and it's playing already. And I'm like approaching it and stuff. So I just left it playing and went to do my stuff, like a cup of tea or something. No one I was the intern in the corner. No one was really looking at what I was doing. And then comes actually like a super nice guy. He was kind of like the wolf pack leader, the person, the alpha. And he notices what I'm doing. He's like, oh, b, this is super cool. Suddenly all the men are like, oh. [01:02:18] Speaker C: Yeah, this is super. [01:02:19] Speaker D: Cool because the Wolfpack leader acknowledged the little intern. And suddenly that's what it like when you have this kind of dynamic. It can be hard to break through it. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the larger societal coin. It's so weird. I'm sorry. [01:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Just social dynamics of things. Everything kind of gets back to that, like Wolf prehistoric kind of how things came to be. But we still have to live and be here now in this modern world. [01:02:53] Speaker A: I just sometimes wish that the creativity was taken for the creative that it is and not I guess everybody wishes that, but a lot of the times I found myself having to be also like a Swiss Army knife because it was like, if I didn't have a set of skills, then I wouldn't even get the booking. So I had to be yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. Which is why I ended up doing more collage, because then I ended up just grabbing everything and putting it all together. It's just had to learn a lot more, which requires a lot more time and a lot more effort on our part in order to even get a little bit of acknowledgment or to get us at the level, like the amount of skill sets that I feel people from other backgrounds have to learn in order to get even the acknowledgment. It's a lot more. I had to learn a lot more in order to come in and be like, yeah, I can do the job and I also can do this. And I also can do this. And I also can do this. [01:04:03] Speaker B: What have you learned from Panamation? Yeah, so I know we're getting a little over our hour, and I want to be respectful, but I do have one more question that I think is an important question. What have you guys learned from Panamation? What maybe something that surprised you? What have you experienced or come away with that kind of carries you forward? [01:04:29] Speaker D: I don't know if this is surprising. It's quite the contrary. It's very cliche sorry, a very underwhelming answer. But I feel like to me, it was just really beautiful to witness in practice how powerful community can be, really, because we started with very little ambition. We just wanted to gather people. That was it. And seeing what we managed to achieve together because of just connecting dots and people helping each other out with the best of intentions. Like one story, for example, that I still remember this one a lot because I was like, wow, this is like it made my ear to hear this one. There's this girl that we connected through Pennymation, and we kind of became just like Internet friends, following each other on Instagram and liking each other's work and stuff. And eventually she did a takeover at Panimation as well, and stuff. And then many years after we still talk to each other on Instagram and stuff. And then she approached me. She was like, hey, B. I just wanted to take a moment to thank you guys for creating Panimation, because I just bought my house with my partner, and I feel like my whole career has changed insanely much since you guys started Pennymation. And with me doing the takeover, being able to get more exposure and stuff, my whole freelance career just changed so much, and I started to get much more consistent projects, and I wouldn't be able to be buying this house, really, if that hasn't happened. What do you say back? This means everything beautiful. [01:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the point. At the end of the day, it's about that's equality. That's what it is. Everybody being able to get the things they work towards and deserve in this life. That's beautiful. [01:06:30] Speaker A: As you mentioned, I'm more of a connector, and it's been just incredible to connect people to one another and to watch from afar the relationships that would have not been able to be together or to even begin or have never met each other because of animation. And so that was my favorite thing at gatherings, was just to after everybody was comfortable in talking, they could step back and see who was gravitating towards whom and what the connections were being made and how people would just find their peers and find others that will connect. And usually that connection then enhances the creativity. It enhances the connection to the industry. There's so many levels that that connection helps in many ways financially, as you said, in so many levels. So that was one of my favorite things, was to see how people will connect with one another that otherwise wouldn't have known each other. [01:07:41] Speaker B: I love that those are two that's what you would hope for, right? Like community, connection, success, like seeing ambition rewarded and boosting it. Seeing yourself and other people. How do you move up as a woman? [01:08:02] Speaker C: I have a few rapid fire. Well, they're not rapid fire, but some student questions if there's still time. Okay, cool. All right, so one of the students wanted to know, how do you move up as a woman when no one takes you seriously? And then all the other female students shook their heads. Yes. [01:08:21] Speaker D: Scream. Because then you're hysterical, right? So you can scream. Yeah. [01:08:29] Speaker B: I think it starts with doing the work. I think that you still got to do the work, right? Like, you still got to put in the hours. You got to do the grind. You got to focus. You got to do that. But I think when it's like your turn for when you feel like you've evolved and you're ready for a promotion, you simply have to ask for it. You cannot assume it's going to happen to you. Nobody's going to just want to give you more money or say, hey, you're doing great as a senior designer. How about art director? Now, if you're still you know what I mean, most companies and structures, the way business works isn't like that. And guys are very proactive, very proactive. So you got to get a little proactive and ask for it and even be proactive and ask questions like what's it going to take to get me there? How do I need to evolve? What do I need to do so that your employers know that's of interest of you to become a creative director, that's a goal you have and that you're hoping that this is a place where you can evolve into that with their mentorship. So I think it's just about being visible and being vocal. [01:09:40] Speaker A: I would add to that that even if you are visible and vocal, sometimes it's not enough, then that may not be the space for you. It's a matter of sort of like taking whatever skills you can learn from that space. Then if that's not where if you're not being seen, if you're not in the field, like you're creating what you want to create, try and find another space. I mean, it's rough out there right now, so I don't know how good this advice is at the moment, but yeah, I would say try to see where else you can go that would be a feasible space. I think that's what Freelancing really did for me was like going from space to space opened me up to be able to be more vocal and open up and speak up. But that came from going from space to space. And which one did I feel more comfortable and where I didn't? [01:10:38] Speaker D: I feel what I usually tell students is kind of like sad news, but it's better, I feel, to prepare them than to paint a picture that is not realistic. I tell that a lot to immigrant students as well, that they have to go through a lot of visa hardships to be able to get what they deserve because of their talent and stuff. It's like be prepared to work three times more than other people. And I'm sorry, a lot of doors are going to be closed to you and you're going to have to work a lot. Know, looking back to what Dorka said, you're going to be having to put more hours than other people that have the privilege and they are unaware of their privilege. So be aware that it's going to be different for you, but you're going to have to work your way through it. And I feel like it can be hard for people that already have a lower confidence to gain respect because usually when you're low in confidence, it's not like you're expensive and eloquent. You're usually approaching ideas kind of like not really trusting yourself as well. You're kind of more like and you're talking very low and stuff. So you do have to work a bit on your confidence. And I feel it's also connecting to what Dorka said, like, what spaces are boosting you with this confidence. And if you don't find the studio first, try connecting to your peers. And that's why I think Pennymission is so important. Like, you have peers that understand you, that feel the same way as you do. They are happy to validate you as well. And like, this is amazing. And that's already starting. Like the confidence little engine. It's like you believe a little bit more in your work, a little bit more in yourself, and then you talk more confidently about your work, and then people are going to take you more seriously because the way that you talk about things makes them feel that you know what you're saying. [01:12:27] Speaker A: I would say yes. Like, the peers is a very big thing for me because my peers were the ones that would refer me to other work or take me with them. And I know how this is going to sound a little wild, but the first eight years, maybe ten years of my career, I was never referred anywhere by a white dude. It was always women, trans, nonbinary people of color referring me to the spaces. It was my peers that will see me and be like, I know you're good. I know what you're doing. I see you. They will go to another job and be like, come on over and take me with them. I know that's wild to hear, but I think I was like in 2020, where I realized because I think in 2020 was the first time or 2019 or so where I got like, oh, I heard this person referred you. And I was like, I think that's the first time I went to that referred me to a job. So yeah, it's as wild as a sound. I wouldn't have had work without that particular network being there. [01:13:44] Speaker B: How does a non binary person market themselves? [01:13:50] Speaker C: Okay, another question from students. How does a non binary person navigate marketing themselves as a creative professional? And I'd say this probably applies also for trans students because I've had students too come out as trans. What do I do with my website now? How do I reintroduce myself like that? But I think for probably non binary and trans, how do they present themselves? [01:14:18] Speaker A: I don't want to speak for trans and nonbinary folks since I'm not trans or non binary myself. I think it's a fun idea to rebrand yourself, though. It would be like. [01:14:35] Speaker D: Brand new and. [01:14:36] Speaker A: Present yourself as like, I'm this brand new person or ensuring that. But that's the only thing I can think of because I've not had that experience and I'm very hesitant to speak on that experience. I would say connect to Panimation and ask that question there because we have plenty of trans and nonbinary folks there that have gone through that experience who identify as such and have had to have that transition off the top of my head, I can think of a few that transition after they were in the industry. [01:15:10] Speaker B: What a great answer. [01:15:12] Speaker D: Just connecting to what Dorca said, because I really think we cannot speak for because both Dork and I were both CIS women, so we cannot really speak for them. But speaking as a woman who is a director, and eventually I hire people and I try to get as much of a diverse team as I can, I am actively interested in finding people and knowing actually if they are a non binary or trans. I know that not everyone wants to be open in the wild about their we're labeled. [01:15:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:44] Speaker D: But I think it can be really interesting. And I have had projects that I was actively interested in hiring, like trans illustrators. So it can be really nice to know on their bio on there about like, hey, I'm a trans person, and trans women, trans men. Or you can get a hint as well when they put, like, they them on there as pronouns. So I think if that helps answering the students questions, I think for some people, depending on the project and depending on how committed a director is in having a diverse team, it can be really helpful when they're looking for talent to know, oh, this person is nonbinary and this person is trend. [01:16:27] Speaker C: Right now, when you say, would that be for a student to ask this question to the Panamation community? Or is there like, can I, as a white male, ask that? Or is that not appropriate? How does that work? [01:16:43] Speaker A: I think it's best for them to go into our Panamation space and ask the question because it's always best to connect with someone that comes from a similar background that has your same interest that understands the hesitations, understands the emotions, the fear. Everything that comes along with that that I could never or you could never understand another reason why when I talked about connection that's another layer of connection of walking into a space and seeing people that look exactly like you or that identify as you do. And millions of questions are asked. It's like, how do you navigate this? How do you navigate that? Things that we are not privy to or will never understand. So, for me, it would be important for the baby students, animators to come in and talk to people who have been navigating this space for a while. [01:17:44] Speaker D: Yeah, we have a transient, nonbinary channel slack on the slack. And we happy to give you some invites for your students. They can join. You don't have to be out in the industry to join. And heads up. Yeah, you don't have to be graduated to join the Fleck. You can join as a student as. [01:18:02] Speaker A: Well, which I am not a part of that channel for obvious reasons. It is exclusively asked. All of you questions about that there. [01:18:13] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great I feel like just top level as an educator and me as a studio owner. People in position of power, it's good to just say, I don't know, but I know about this group or I know about this. Here's some breadcrumbs. Go. Just give people the information and the ability to empower themselves, to seek out knowledge, you know what I mean? Because it validates somebody existence to say, I don't know, how could I possibly respond? I am not that that is like brave because we all want to feel like we relate, can relate to somebody in some way for some other reason, but we can't. You know what I mean? We just can't. That's interesting. [01:18:57] Speaker A: Experiences are very varied and different and there's groups that have experiences that I will never have. [01:19:05] Speaker B: Right. [01:19:05] Speaker A: So I definitely will connect with people who understand wonderful well. [01:19:13] Speaker B: Thank you ladies so much for your time. We are so appreciative of sharing your time and talent and information and we'll try and help get the word out there, especially about the Patreon situation. I think it would be really a good push for us to put that out into the universe and certainly on the front side of the face of the stoner. So I'll give like little nudges there. But yeah, this has been really a really great learning opportunity, at least for me. So thank you guys very much. [01:19:44] Speaker C: Thank you. [01:19:45] Speaker D: Thank you guys for the lovely chats and it was an honor for us to be in this getting to see. [01:19:51] Speaker A: Your faces and talk to you guys. Super happy to be here. [01:19:56] Speaker B: Awesome. [01:19:57] Speaker D: We will.