Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Hi, I'm Aaron Swarovski and I'm Austin to Shaw. This is between the keyboard
Speaker 1 00:00:09 This week. We're going to talk about 10 90 nines. I need an accountant. I need an account. Yeah, this, uh, talk about 10 99
Speaker 2 00:00:22 In, in freelance, in general independent contractor. It's called a lot of different things, but they're basically the same thing, um, is a continuation of our last week's episode, which is about focusing on the pros and cons of being full time. Um, things to think about when maybe to make the shift here into freelance, the things
Speaker 1 00:00:41 That you should know, let's talk about freelance,
Speaker 3 00:00:44 Freelance, freelancing, free, free,
Speaker 0 00:00:47 It's expensive, it's expensive. And we as business owners, we pay a premium
Speaker 4 00:00:53 To get this person in the chair, working boom, like that. They're like an assassin.
Speaker 0 00:01:00 You're a mercenary you're coming
Speaker 4 00:01:02 In for this specific role to knock this out of the park. And there's a little less nonsense that we accept from a freelancer, you know, no nonsense, well, unless you're a junior,
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Right? Unless they're, you know, and junior freelance, I think it's usually understood the expectations. Aren't going to be the same, right.
Speaker 4 00:01:22 Are going to be the same. But then the, then their rate is, is different.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 Well, that's where re you know, and, and I talk about this with students all the time. It's like, you know, I'm like, if you start at a lower rate, you've got a lot less pressure and a lot more leniency on your expectations. If you're a baller and you want, uh, near a senior or near senior rate right off the bat, you gotta back that up. You gotta, you know, no, no dropping the ball. No, I don't know how to do this. You gotta really deliver. Right.
Speaker 4 00:01:53 I mean, when you have somebody come in with like a significant rate had, they're just like clueless. When you come into a studio as a freelancer, we're expecting, you're bringing all of your knowledge to the table from other places, from other studios, from your like vast knowledge. And yeah, we have a set way of doing things, but we're going to expect, uh, a much more varied expertise.
Speaker 1 00:02:18 Yeah. And, and, and I think, you know, a true, I don't know if that's the right word, but I guess just say an experienced freelancer, somebody who's done it. I think we'll have that, you know, you get very much that Swiss army knife kind of, because you have that varied experience because you've worked at a lot of different places with a lot of different people. You tend to have a broader knowledge base in that sense, at least, or at least a broader knowledge, but experience base
Speaker 4 00:02:44 The experience factor too. Then you can kind of see it come in.
Speaker 1 00:02:49 It was interesting. Cause I hadn't really thought about that from the, the hiring entities point of view, what you just described. I mean, but it makes sense. It does it, you know, um, the other thing that I wanted to go jump back on was the, uh, you know, you, the studios, my sense is that the studios, yes. They pay a premium for the freelancers, but they're also like when you don't need to fill that workstation, right? Like you're not paying a salary on somebody who's just hanging out when it's not as busy. Right. So it's like the ability to like have your core team on staff who can take care of business and kind of keep the wheels turning all the time and then staff up with freelance as needed. Right. And to be able to kind of ride the waves of busy-ness versus
Speaker 4 00:03:42 So I think probably a number one benefit that I've heard you say is that you get to keep it. Yeah. Yeah. Taxes, taxes,
Speaker 1 00:03:52 Right? Um, no, there is, uh, I, I honestly feel like it's a bit of an unfair benefit because, you know, you mentioned earlier when you're working as a freelancer, you're working essentially as an independent contractor, you're working as a business entity and in, and because of that, you are able to essentially operate the same way that any business does. And especially the largest businesses who have a lot of influence in how tax law is written to their benefit. So I always look at, as a freelancer can ride on the coattails of the big business kind of tax laws. And so what that means, like you talked about earlier, yes. Like if there's a conference and the freelancer wants to go to that conference, they've got to pay for that themselves, but that's also a hundred percent tax deductible. Right. So that, um, you know, the, the admission to the conference, the travels of the conference, all of it, right. That's a write off, that's a tax write-off you still got to pay for it. That's still money out of pocket. As my account
Speaker 4 00:04:52 Says, you're still spending the money. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:04:55 You're still, yes, it's true. This is true. But there are
Speaker 0 00:04:59 Benefits. There are benefits,
Speaker 1 00:05:01 Your hardware, your software, your studio space, um, any kind of creative research. You're doing reference design art and reference books. You're buying all of it. Right? It's all part of your cost of doing business that you could include in your, your taxes. So, you know, I always break with students. I'm like, you know, if you're a ho, if you're on a salary, you're W2 getting paid a hundred K a year, you're getting taxed on a hundred K coming right out of every paycheck. You're getting tax like a third. Um, and there's really, there's no way, right? It's it, it's done. You know, if you're working as a freelancer and you add up all your 10 90 nines at the end of the year and they go a hundred K and then you add up all your business expenses and the equal 50 K you're only paying 50 K you're only paying tax on that, that income. Right. So you're keeping more of your tax money. Okay. So,
Speaker 4 00:06:01 But you're also doing that accounting, right? Like now you're tracking your receipts. You have to be <inaudible>. Oh, no,
Speaker 1 00:06:07 It does. It means you do need to, it's a bit more responsibility. That's that is a benefit. I'd say for the W2, you don't have to do any of that. Right. You just, you could use turbo tax. Like I use an accountant I'm using the count and every year, essentially, that I've been in business
Speaker 4 00:06:22 And that's great because it's,
Speaker 1 00:06:24 Well, it can be, if you're like an escort escort, the corporation is expensive LLC and not so bad, but it's an expense, but it's a tax deductible expense.
Speaker 3 00:06:36 It really is. Every time I pay my, every time I pay my account and the following year, Dr.
Speaker 0 00:06:40 Dr. Ball it's tax deductible,
Speaker 1 00:06:50 I think freelance it's. I don't, I personally, I think it's somewhat of a personality thing. Like if it's the way, you know, and, and, but I'm also like, I don't necessarily say it's for everybody, you know, there are some people it's just like, if you can't kind of manage the, the anxieties and the uncertainties, especially in the beginning. Right. You know, it, it can be stressful. I mean, it's, it's not necessarily for everyone, but I remember I really wanted to get a W2 job right off the bat. And when I first got started, it was, you know, the places I was working in, the places like curious pictures, like all of the, you know, I was working as a junior freelancer there and everyone on staff was either like a 3d artist or like a har like more of almost a VFX compositor. Right. And they, the designers were all freelance and the staff designers, they had directors, but it was, and I was just like, I would have loved to have gotten a job off the bat, but all I was getting was freelance work.
Speaker 1 00:07:51 And then, and then things kind of shifted when all the studios, like the PSYOP and brand new school troll back, and everybody started it the departure from the post production model. Right. And the design driven models started coming in. Then you started seeing the flip side where it was like staff designers, freelance animators, really, you know, by, by that point I started getting offers and I was like, uh, I kind of like, kind of like this realist thing, you know, like I, like, you know, by that it's like, my rate was getting to be more intermediate. And, and, um, I remember talking to some people on staff and I've really had to places and they'd just be like, they'd asked me, they're like, so how do you like this freelance thing? Like, how do you, like, I'm like, I like it. It's cool. And they'd, you could see them, their wheels turning and they're there.
Speaker 1 00:08:42 And they're just like, no, I can't, I can't. Yeah. The kid like deal, not knowing know without the benefits. And at that time it was like freelancers union. Do you remember? I don't know if you know about the freelancers union, but that was big thing in New York, in the two thousands. It was basically a group that formed just so that freelancers could get health insurance. Yeah. That's great. So this is pre affordable care act, pre Obamacare. So it's like if I wanted to get health insurance, I either had to go through, I think the first thing I did, I went through a, just like a private insurance person. Yeah. You gotta figure it out. The freelancers union came out. It was like, I sent a fax. You remember those things fax? And I faxed all my documents and I got into the freelancers union and I was able to get on a plan, you know?
Speaker 1 00:09:29 And by the way, health insurance is a freelancer, a hundred percent tax deductible. Right. Um, and I just pay, but it was like as a young, single guy in New York, in the mid two thousands, it was like 350 bucks a month for my interns. And then I was at, by that time, my rate was probably like 4, 4 50 a day. So it'd be like, you know, if I'm PERMA Lansing, like one day I've already paid my whole insurance with one day, you know, I'm paying a thousand bucks a month in my apartment, in New York city. It's like, okay,
Speaker 3 00:10:02 Two days, you know, by, by four days of working
Speaker 1 00:10:07 In a month, I'm like, oh, I've paid my health insurance that paid my rent, you know? So it was sort of getting adapted to just trusting that I was in the mix, you know, and getting booked and getting, and then it was a lot of hustle back then. Cause it was, you know, I do a booking, it would end and then I'd freak out. Cause I'd be like, oh my God, I, I guess I have to find another career now, you know? And then I'd hustle, hustle, hustle, and then I get a booking and then it would, and then I'd freak out, but then I get another booking. And then once you kind of crossed a tipping point, you were just getting that I'm turning down stuff.
Speaker 4 00:10:44 Yeah. Well, cause once you're in, in a groove and you have clients, it's like, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:10:49 Well, and, and, and in that time it was like, once you're in the sort of the freelance talent pool and you're building your reputation. Yeah. There's a tipping point where you go from a castle hustle hustle, which is a lot in the beginning. And a lot of self-advocacy then it's like, you're getting, you can work as much or as little as you want. Right. Like, cause you're basically turning down work. You referring your friends, you're basically saying thank you so much for reaching out, but I am not available, but please keep me in mind for the future. Or I will let you know when my availability opens up. Right. And, and then it's just like, then you're just on the you're on the train.
Speaker 4 00:11:34 Okay. So let's let's let me ask this question. How do you decide on your rate?
Speaker 1 00:11:40 Oh, wow. Yeah, so I was told my rate at first. So my first rate was $200 a day and I was told I was working as an intern and I want to, I want to pitch in the pitch was for a pretty big commercial and a CG. She said, we're going to pay you $200
Speaker 3 00:11:58 A day for every time you work
Speaker 1 00:12:00 On this job because you know, it's not right for us to not do that because you know, you've paid us a bunch of money. So I was like, awesome. So, so my rate for it at the beginning, it was, it was really just kind of being, yeah. Being told by a supervisor. And then it was asking, meeting and talking to other freelancers, how much are you, how much are you charging? Then you're like, I'm charging 300 a day. And I'm like, oh, we're kind of like the same skill set and experience. So I guess my rate is now three. And then so it's a lot. That was how I did it. It was, it was talking to other freelancers finding out. And then, you know, after half a year, a year, it goes by, you know, if I'm at a PERMA Lance position and they're there and I'm there for half a year, sometimes I wouldn't negotiate like, oh four 50, how about 400? If we do a three month bookings and there's that sort of whole intermediate and for me for a long time and like getting to 500 a day was cause that was where the senior people, when I was a junior, I was like, how much does the scene, you know, talking to the producers was the senior people make, they're like, oh, we pay them 500 a day. I'm like, okay,
Speaker 4 00:13:09 That's my goal. Right.
Speaker 1 00:13:12 And then getting to that point, and then it's, you know, then you hear about some freelancer who, you know, who's like charging 600 a day and you're like charged 600 a day, you know? And then it's like, oh, it's been a year at six months of time to go to six. And then it's like, oh, it's time to go to seven. And then I still have it. I think it's, I have some friends in New York who are up to like 900 a day for like agent, you know, for after stuff and agencies. But I know some studios like studios are not going to pay that. Well, we
Speaker 4 00:13:49 Can't afford it. That's like a, that's a lot of money for
Speaker 1 00:13:53 The cap out at certain. And I think it, then it starts to who you talking to was industry and hiring you. And yeah.
Speaker 4 00:14:02 So have you ever heard about people charging different rates for different places? Cause I caught wind of that and I would be really upset if I found out we were being charged more than somebody else. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1 00:14:14 I haven't heard that. I've never had that. I mean, I've had people like, can, you know, I tell them my rate and I mean, this is, and they'd asked if I can do this has been a long time ago, but can we do this? And then it was up to me. Yeah. Like, do I want to work with the studio? Is it somebody who's hired me before? And I enjoy right. I enjoy the work. Or they just have like, Hey, this budget is only be only have this much. Can you do it for it's really opposite. But it's like, I had to learn how to be a mercenary. Exactly. Like I had aligned
Speaker 4 00:14:51 Was your line as a certain place. Like we can ask for anything it's up to you to decide what your value is. So yeah. And
Speaker 1 00:15:01 It very much is like, it's, there's not a lot of, uh, the lines are not nearly as clear. I feel in that freelance world, you have to figure a lot of that out. And the way I did that was talking to other freelancers and also talking to producers who were working at places and also talking to those freelance producers because
Speaker 3 00:15:20 They're sort of doing the same thing. Yeah. As producers, you know,
Speaker 4 00:15:28 Has somebody ever just like, not paid you or to like, unbook you after they booked you or anything like that?
Speaker 1 00:15:36 Yeah. I haven't, I haven't had any of those kinds of horror stories. I've heard of some, but it's like you said the same way that your freelancer reputation is your, you got to keep that golden ceiling of the studio. Like if a studio stiffs their freelancers, that's going to go around real quick and nobody's going to take bookings there. Right. I've had, I've had like, Hey, like this project's gone away, you know, can, can we release your booking without a kill fee? And it's kind of, and then it's up to me. That'd be like, all right, do I really want to do I want to do them a solid and, and kinda tell them I'm doing them a solid and say, just
Speaker 4 00:16:12 Right, I'll show you this one, the next one. Yeah. We want to work with you
Speaker 1 00:16:15 Guys. So it's but definitely, you know, booked me on the next job because I'm hungry. If you're working with legitimate studios and legitimate brands and companies, like I've never had an issue, it's always those fringy weird, like people who don't really understand the industry, they're sort of on the fringe of it. That's where things I've heard things get odd. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:16:43 Well we've all,
Speaker 1 00:16:45 Sometimes I've had to wait like, like longer than I wanted a way to get paid sometimes, but always gotten paid, but you do need to sort of learn how to manage your accruement reserves. So preserve. Right, right. You know, I don't have some money in the bank, you know,
Speaker 4 00:17:02 That's something that studios go through all the time. I mean, this assumption of freelancer, Polly has never heard from a studio or a company, but this thing called sequential liability. So as a studio, if an agency hires us, sometimes there's this terminology on the contract that says that. And that means that we do not get paid until they get paid. So like surrogacy is now waiting for client to pay agency to pay us. Well, these are like hundreds of millions of dollars flowing through these companies. And they are like, yeah, but our client didn't pay us the $50,000. So neither you or the audio company are getting anything, but we still down have freelancers that we've hired and payroll and all the things. So we also need an ample reserve, but every once in a while you just get this like weird moment where like all your clients, you're just like calling everybody going, like you need, somebody needs to pay us.
Speaker 4 00:18:08 Cause we got bills to get. Yeah. And they have all sorts of jinky roles just so that they can keep money on the table a little longer because they have like investor moments or milestones or things like that. So like, we'll hear everything from like, well, one of the other vendors on the job hasn't submitted an invoice yet. So we're waiting to disperse funds for that. So like, okay, because it hasn't sent you a $4,000 invoice, like I got to wait on a hundred thousand dollars, like, or 200 or 400 or something crazy like that. They really kind of create an environment. A lot of, I don't want to say they as an all agencies or clients do that because some are incredible, like incredibly fast to a point where you're like, it doesn't seem real, you know? Um, but there, there are the ones that just make it really, really, really hard to get money out of them.
Speaker 1 00:19:06 Right. And I've, I've like noticed like, like even as a freelancer, like people who pay fast versus people who always drag it out that creates or detracts Goodwill and my willingness to work for them. So I remember like the first time I freelance with super fan, I got to check in like two days after I submitted the invoice. I was like, I couldn't. I was like, what?
Speaker 3 00:19:25 Like, how did I literally, like I submitted the invoice
Speaker 1 00:19:28 And they must have processed and put the check in the mail. And that created such a sense of Goodwill that I was like, nice, where there were like other shops where, you know, 30 days go by, okay. 45 days go by, Hey, 60 days go by, Hey, 75 days, go by. It's like, all right. Why am I working as hard to get paid? This that I did on the job I actually did. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:19:54 Well, and I think that it's like a really important thing for freelancers to understand. They got to keep track of the invoices. They're sending out, they got to follow up on them, but that is not going to be effortless. And that, I, I think there's like some administrative stuff that they need to be aware of. Not just from the stream. It's true. You do have to, do you have
Speaker 1 00:20:13 To, you have to keep track. I mean, I'm not, I'm not a fan of paperwork. I've managed the system for myself, you know? I mean, it's not, it's not rocket science, but you're right. It's like, I do have to, if somebody hasn't paid, I have to follow up. It's usually an email. Hey, just checking on this and you use a attach, the invoice that was submitted and be like, just want to follow up on this. Yeah. No.
Speaker 4 00:20:43 Okay. So I also wanted to talk to you about like, as studio, a big thing is, um, developing a brand awareness to the market that we're here and what we view. Do you feel that like you've had to develop a personal brand for being a freelancer? Or is it something like, everybody just knows Austin? And I thought
Speaker 1 00:21:05 Probably more of the ladder. You know what I mean? I mean, I've had that man had to like create and maintain and revise a website. I think I showed you my first website. It was pretty bad. Um, yeah. You know what I mean? And it was just like, oh my God, I need to do a website. I'm going to put my work up. This is like, you know, I don't know HTML. I got someone to help me. It was really bad. And over the years it's like having to update that. So I've had to, but I don't feel like I've had to make up a brand in the same way that maybe a studio would. I think it's probably more of like me as just kind of, I mean, you can, if you're really into sort of like identity design and you want to cultivate that, but I've done it more as just like just Austin, the guy,
Speaker 3 00:21:49 The guy, I mean, you don't when you looked at me as like a brand
Speaker 1 00:21:53 Or I'm just like the guy, Hey, the guy.
Speaker 4 00:21:55 Yeah. But some freelancers kind of start, it seemed like building a brand. And that to me is always kind of like when you start seeing that happen or you start seeing freelancers pair off to tackle projects together, you kind of know that that's the beginning of a business or small business. Do you, do you have thoughts on that, about the idea of a freelancer transitioning into a business owner?
Speaker 1 00:22:25 I mean, I, I CA I mean, I did it a little bit, right. Like I had a little, I had a little studio it's called right on, right on media Corp. Right. I did that for like, when I first went and remote, I left New York city and moved to Westchester 20 miles north. I made the great Exodus. And, um, and for awhile I just worked out of my apartment. And then, then when we found out we were going to have a baby, we, um, we needed that second bedroom as a nursery. So I actually rented a little studio space, like a block away. And I had, I had like a couple workstations and I got some interns and I bring some freelancers in some other Westchester freelancers, and I was doing, and, you know, I had, I mean, I grossed more money than I had ever made in a year in my life.
Speaker 1 00:23:14 And I worked harder than I'd ever had in my life. And I like dangerously burned out. And it was, um, that probably had more to do with me, not being great with delegation and boundaries and my own personal issues, more so than, than anything else. Um, but it's a lot, I mean, I had to, like, it had to be like my, I mean, it was big. I go to the Mac store and like pick up a new Mac pro and then I'd be back there a week later. Like I need another Mac pro like, you know, and you know what that was during right before the housing crash.
Speaker 4 00:23:48 Right. So I had this insane
Speaker 1 00:23:51 Year and then I was doing a lot of broadcasts. Right. A lot of direct, like basically, which was what that was the way I saw studios in the two thousands rise. Right. They did a whole bunch of show packages for broadcast clients networks, and then they get a commercial and then they'd start doing agency work. And I was on that path and then the crash happened and I was busy, but it was nothing really cool. And then, then I got the opportunity to actually go, go into do some in-house freelancing on Superfad you had left by that point. And then, and then that actually turned into a full-time gig. And I let that studio a little right on studio, go in anyway. So my thoughts on it are yeah. And it, it it's, I think the whole social media, digital media revolution has made it a lot easier for people like where I am now to work as a small operator, because there's all these little deliverables that a one-minute video really, you know, when I have a broad range, like, you know, 2d, I'm all over 2d animation. I can, I can mess with some 3d if it gets into photo, real 3d eye patch. Um, but it's like, I, you know, I can take from a concept design execute, like any kind of, especially with these, like anywhere from five to 15 seconds, it's like, multi-platform lots of versioning, lots of deliverables. It's like, I have, I have a skill set that lets me do pretty well as a small operator.
Speaker 4 00:25:22 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like the, I feel like you've touched on a lot of the points I was thinking or hoping you would in that answer is that, and that's, as you transitioned from being a freelancer main operator guy who, as it is, you're freelance, you're a freelance business entity. So you're dealing with billing, you're dealing with your software, your hardware, all of your things, all the jobs, taking that, and then turning it into a company with a few, even just a few employees and all of that changes the paradigm completely. There, there is a shift. And, um, I think people move into that. Like very rosy. I, I know because I definitely moved into that very rosy item there wasn't like this list of things that I would check off. Like if you went and got an MBA, they would say like, okay, well, you're gonna need to figure out this and you're gonna need to figure out that. And like, perhaps if you knew that that list existed, like you wouldn't do it, you would just be like, this is my line. This is as far as I'm going as a freelance operator. No, I don't want to turn into a business. Right. Because there's all these other responsibilities that come
Speaker 0 00:26:40 With it sometimes, sometimes take you further
Speaker 1 00:26:44 Away from the thing work,
Speaker 4 00:26:46 The work that you like. Yeah. That thing that you love doing. Yeah. Occasionally
Speaker 1 00:26:51 I get projects that are too big or the deadlines too, too tight for me to just do totally solo. So then it's just like, boom, I grabbed another, uh, ju you know, a junior or another senior freelancer, and we will tackle it together. But it's like, it's usually more, you know, there's not really an there's no, like, Hey, like we're going to make a studio out of this. Right. It's just like, yeah. Oh, it's just this one. And done. Yeah. You know, and next time, something like this happens, we'll do it again. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 4 00:27:20 But it's not like with the intention of keeping that up and going, and that relationship can go into the ether and you never have to work with them again. There's no kind of implied implication there. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:27:33 A little band, a band of, uh, of mercenaries come together, get a, totally
Speaker 3 00:27:40 Got it. And then go away.
Speaker 4 00:27:46 What are the good emotional things about, you know, being freelance, right.
Speaker 1 00:27:51 I guess I, Tash I touched on it a little earlier when I was talking about that idea of like, when I was, when I would consider these full-time offers and you know, there's, there's one of the benefits is you can detach, right. There's a, there's a built in detachment or it's like, my booking is over. It is time to go. Like, there's a, an easy, so, and sometimes that, you know, and you know, if, if you really enjoyed it and they don't want to keep you there, it's kind of a bummer, you know, but that's not really a benefit, but it's like, you know, you just stay out of the politics, you stay out of the personality, stay out of the drama. Right. It's just like, you know, you're less invested in, I guess, if there are negative aspects, just things that you don't want
Speaker 4 00:28:41 And you don't feel like you have to fix it. You're like, I'm here. My job is to do this. I'm going to do this. You guys deal with your shit some other time. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:49 Yeah. So, Joe, there are probably clear boundaries about what what's yours. What's not yours. Um, the other, I would say the exposure and growth, you know, so it's a different trajectory, right? You're going to a full-time job. Like you come in as a junior, you get promoted and you become a senior and then maybe you come an art director or lead very different trajectory. You almost have to like, it's up to you to sort of say like, I am now seeing this. I am like, I am an art director. I am a creative director. Right. Like, and then sometimes it's like, I might get hired as a freelancer to come in creative director, or I might get hired to come in and just animate something
Speaker 4 00:29:27 And you have to be okay with that. Yeah. You have to know, like, I'm not the creative director. I'm not respecting this other person here is the creative director.
Speaker 1 00:29:37 And, and so it's, you have to be very flexible and adaptable in that way. But sometimes it's nice too, because sometimes it's like, man, if all I've been doing is just sort of like leading and having a deal at the big level decisions. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, I just get to build something cool. I want to spend the next few weeks just building something. You know, it is nice. So I liked that variety, but, but the exposure to all the different talents. So if you're going from studio different studios and you're spending enough time there to learn something, to get some knowledge from their senior people to meet the other freelancers and other staff, the staff people there it's, it's almost like, unless you're just completely shut off for everyone and I can't help, but be a bit of a sponge and just learn.
Speaker 1 00:30:25 And you learn all these tips and tricks. And I tell my students that I'm like, I'm like all these things I'm showing you these little tricks I'm showing you and Photoshop or illustrator after effects see 4d. It's like, I learned all this stuff from just working with lots of different people. And, and there is, I think because motion design is so collaborative that people are generally pretty good about sharing those, especially on a job we're trying to get it done or you know, those early days where you're kind of figuring it out. And then you're like kind of stuck on this. And then you're like, Hey,
Speaker 3 00:30:58 Can you get someone a little more senior to show you a thing? And then you're like,
Speaker 1 00:31:03 Oh, that's the thing. And then that becomes part of your toolkit. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:31:08 Or if you have to jump into somebody's spiral, you're like, oh shit,
Speaker 0 00:31:14 This is great. Yeah, no, I've
Speaker 3 00:31:17 Had a few moments where it's like getting to work with
Speaker 1 00:31:20 Some, like, you know, like a heroes, like file and getting to see like, oh, that's how they did that. That's really cool. Yeah. That's clutch, that's a big, big deal. Or like, you know, like getting to work on boards, right. Getting to work with creative directors and then giving you feedback and helping you become a better designer. I mean, if I had that experience with you where it's like, we've pitched on stuff and you know, you're like, why don't you try this with like a hand drawn style? And I'm like, okay. And then we, you know, and then we win and I'm like, cool. Like you helped me become a better, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:31:58 Perspectives are good to think about things. I think like the best creative directors are just people that are open to questioning and aren't afraid to kind of even send somebody down a wrong path to experiment, you know, it's, uh, it's interesting. So
Speaker 1 00:32:15 I was going to say it's for people with like a real kind of that free spirit that you're, you're you feel like you just want to keep making discoveries, you want some flexibility in your, maybe your lifestyle to travel or people who maybe want to like a side hustle. That's maybe like a passion side hustle, but they also, you know, they're solid designer, designing manners who want, who need to make a living. It's good for them too. So you can some affordances in that way that you can, you know, if you get to a place you can balance those things. Like it's, it's not like, I mean, I guess you could do that on day one, but you kinda need to do the grind. Do you need to go in, you need to go work in house, even if you're an in-house freelancer, like go work in house for a bit.
Speaker 4 00:33:03 Yeah. Yeah. You got to see you gotta yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, the experience factor is essential to evolution. Well, I think, um, like looking big picture, I think everybody that has listened to this can really benefit from, you know, you were one of the first people that I know that really went freelance and you've watched the industry change, especially, you know, as you touched on in a sea of full-timers you were like the guy out there doing this. So that's super cool. And um, now I think the mentality has changed completely, uh, of the kind of artists that are out there. It's more of a gig mentality. People don't mind like insecurity. There are things like Obamacare and things out there and resources to do. 401k is all of that is, um,
Speaker 1 00:33:55 Yeah. Oh, I did like a self-employment pension. It's harder to figure out back in the day now it's
Speaker 0 00:34:02 Was really hard. Yeah. It
Speaker 4 00:34:04 Seems so easy. And I'm not trying to complain, but like really there are tools and resources there, if you want to go and freelance.
Speaker 1 00:34:12 Yeah. And a lot of staff, a lot of people too, like, like you said, that idea of the cult, I think collectively our culture and our perspective on full-time jobs has changed too. Right. So lately it used to be like, you know, you get a job, you work there for 30 years, you retire. Right. And then, and the idea that if your resume showed too many jobs, like that was a bad thing. And now it's like, you know, people will go and work at a brand I'm like a creative team and a brand for a couple, two, three years. And then they'll jump to another brand that worked for two, three years then jumped in another and it becomes like, yeah, they're full-time, but they're almost operating like a little bit like permanent Lance. Full-time like, you know what I mean? And that's just seems like it's a lot more accepted and normal.
Speaker 4 00:34:57 Yeah. So, okay. So, so this has been a really good talk. This was fun. Let's do it again in two weeks.
Speaker 1 00:35:06 Hope your day is easy. Ease.
