Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:01 Hi, I'm Aaron Swarovski
Speaker 1 00:00:03 And I'm Austin show.
Speaker 0 00:00:10 This week's episode is called the interrogation because we felt like it would be fun to have a student about to transition into the real world, interrogate us. So, Austin, would you like to introduce Michelle and tell him
Speaker 1 00:00:27 I've invited one of my students, Michelle MacDonald to come and I've told her if she can ask us anything, um, related to the field of motion design. Michelle, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 00:00:41 And it was Michelle. I am a senior at Western Washington university studying design, and I'm one of Austin Shaw students. And, uh, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 0 00:00:54 Well, thank you for being here. Okay. Well, do we want to jump in one question one?
Speaker 2 00:00:59 Yeah, I have. So I have individual question. Well, I have one individual question for each of you, so you can be kind of put in the hot seat a little bit. And uh, and then I have some like for the team questions, so yes, maybe I'll start with one for the team and then I'll do that natural ones. So this is a good opener. My first question is what makes you proud and excited that you chose this profession?
Speaker 0 00:01:29 Proud and excited? Well, for me it was like kind of the beginning of the field. I feel like I stumbled into it and it's infancy and we've kind of seen it kind of grow from everything from optical into like the desktop kind of phase of it. And it's only going to get more and more interesting and the applications are going to get more and more diverse, but it's like, how did watching the birth of a star Austin?
Speaker 1 00:01:58 Yeah, no, no. I liked that. I liked that because it's true. I mean, when w when I got into, we got into around right around the same time and it, it wasn't like we knew what it even really was. At least I didn't like, it was just kinda like, no, it was just exactly. That's the other thing, like, you couldn't, you didn't go study motion design. It was just, there were Stu and it just happened to be, and I think for Aaron and I, our generation too, there's, we're sort of on that tip of analog to digital, right. So we've got training and kind of rooted in both and even going back to like rotary phones and having to like turn television dials, like to actually change, like
Speaker 0 00:02:41 Having something to your messages, listening.
Speaker 1 00:02:45 Yeah, exactly. Like a VCR, like all of that stuff. It's, you know, an email being kind of a, a novel thing to just communicate with friends at other colleges, like once or twice a semester, and then to have these tools that, you know, I was just doing my thing, you know, and it was like, okay, like learning these digital tools gave me, um, access to create opportunities that I can combine kind of my studio or background with this new design education and these design tools. And, uh, yeah, I had no idea that at the same time, the industry was really departing from real traditional model of post-production. That was just a part of post-production. And it was, it was really expensive to do motion design that the pre 2000, right.
Speaker 0 00:03:34 These really,
Speaker 1 00:03:36 Really expensive rigs and all of a sudden with, you know, Mac computers and, you know, after effects, we can Adobe, like we can experiment,
Speaker 0 00:03:47 You know,
Speaker 1 00:03:50 So yeah, go on, go on. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:03:53 Software that's like over now, you know, well, obviously about like, we joke about like freehand freehand, which was a variation on illustrator in cork, which was a variation on it
Speaker 1 00:04:04 Express. Right. Remember what was the one Adobe streamline? It was a program that all it did was convert rasters to vectors. So it was literally like live, trace and illustrator. It was a standalone program. And then someone was like, why don't we just buy that As like a button? Right. Um, so that part is exciting and, and proud. Yeah. To have to have just kind of written along on this train and to either kind of on the ground. Um, I would say from the educational point of view, getting the kind of be there too, and like, you know, help at least as modern incarnation of teaching this discipline, getting to be someone on the ground with that, getting to see the students do stuff in the world.
Speaker 0 00:04:53 I mean, I think you even helped define what we call it. Motion design, like your book, like we were as a industry, struggling with what to even call us, is it machine graphics, which has hold over from broadcast? Is it motion design seems like so easy to say right now, but we really struggled as an industry about the language of what to even call it.
Speaker 1 00:05:18 Can I dig a little further for Erin on this question about just Swarovski itself and, um, you know, what makes you, what makes you most proud of, uh, Swarovski as a studio?
Speaker 0 00:05:30 I'm most proud that we have lasted we'd have a pulse and we're thriving. It's been like a really, you know, we just did an episode. That's going to be our first episode. That's called the history of now. And we really talk about like how the industry has evolved and changed. It went from this, like what I'll call a digital boom motion design, boom. And then it got quiet because like things just shifted tonally into more comedy, dry comedy. So you weren't seeing like crazy logo animations or design and fuse since the live action and you were like logo. So, um, so yeah, I think like just the shift in trends like that, where we're here and we're doing work that we're proud of and all the relationships for me, like outside of like the art and craft of it all from a business standpoint, it's that I'm still close with most of the people that were my clients, you know, and almost all of them from the jump and really took care of them and they still call it. So this one will be for both of you to, what is the nicest thing that anyone has ever said to you? A check is in the mail
Speaker 1 00:06:46 I got one. So we were doing, um, it was this thing when I was teaching at SCAD, we were doing this like a creative, like, what do they call it? Um, collaboration, uh, CLC, creative learning, collaborations, that's it. And we were in this sort of Roundup with like students and they were doing this little exercise wherever it was talking about, like, what's your ninja skill. Right. And they were trying to get all the students to say, like, what's that thing I do besides design that I'm good at. And one of the students said to me that I just said out loud, like without prompting, he was, they were like, Shaw's ninja skill is his mentorship. You know, he's just a great mentor, you know? And, and that, that, that was very touching, you know, to, to see that that's how they saw me. That was pretty nice. So that, that popped into my head. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:07:34 Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause like that kind of reminds me just like after speaking or doing some kind of even shy, you said to me that like the other day I gave a talk in your class and you said that somebody paid this like really amazing compliment after the fact, you know, it's nice to hear that people appreciate kind of where you been and what you've been through and your openness and willingness to share that. And I think that is a little bit of the Genesis of this podcast is so much of what Austin and I talk about just privately about the field and the educational kind of side of it and how things flow from one end to the other. There seems to be like a really that there is really no mentorship to go through that. And we still reflect on those times.
Speaker 0 00:08:25 And even though like the, the aspects of the transition has changed from a technology standpoint, from a, you know, how you market yourself, it's still like kind of the same. You still gotta stand out. You still got to refine your skills and there's still like socially appropriate ways to kind of handle things. And so when we kinda, we kinda thought like we do this and then we didn't know what to expect of it, if anything, but every once in a while, like I'll give a talk or you I'll put myself out there and I'll get like a nice note back from somebody not asking for anything, not wanting anything, just saying, Hey, that was really, that story is going to change the way I approach things. So it's nice, you know?
Speaker 2 00:09:14 Um, well that's actually a really good, um, tied to my next question. I would just for you Erin, and I think you'd struggle with this one, but I'm curious as to what has been your experience working in like a predominantly male field field, and if that has like led to any obstacles for you or if there was any like advice that you would want to give, like your younger female self. Yeah. Going into that
Speaker 0 00:09:39 When I was a little younger, certain out my career, even though I was entirely surrounded by men, I didn't really think about it. I just focused on the work I really did. And then when it like kind of the light kind of from the lighthouse shined in my eyes and I realized what was going on. I like had a nice confrontational mode with my employers and was like, you need to do something about this. It's not acceptable. Like being paid half of what I was, my counterparts were making. And then they were like, Hey, we can do a little something. And I was like, okay, you're never going to like evolve from that. Like, Hmm. And so what I would say, I don't think I'd change anything because like, I really liked that I focused on the work. Like I was there for the right reasons and I, and I wouldn't have wanted to be just focused when starting out my career on like the other aspects of it. Like man, cause like, you know, 20% more when you're making like $30,000 of something like change your fucking lives.
Speaker 0 00:10:50 so, I mean, so I think I, I did an okay thing by focusing on my career, but what I, what I tell women now is to know what's going on in the market, know how much you were. Hmm. Uh, I think that people do talk more openly about what they're making in studios and with their peers and like freelancers kind of talk with each other about their rates. And, well, I don't necessarily want all like lawyer employees talking, they probably about what they make, because I think that's a private negotiation, I assume that they do. And with that assumption, that means that like, I will never kind of pay somebody outside of the range of what's appropriate for what they do. So if they're coming in and saying like I'm coming in, I'm a senior XYZ, this is what we pay an artist and that, or Boozer or admin in that kind of range.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 And if it's not going to work for you, it's just not gonna work. I'm not gonna bend the rules for that person. Like, so I think that that's really like important. It's hard for employers to kind of live by that. I will say that that is hard because when you need somebody and you're in a bind and looking for somebody, you'll kind of stretch a little bit because you're obviously making money because you've got jobs flowing and you need extra hands. But by and large, I think that's for me like the rule I stand by. So I think I would, I don't know that I'd say anything because also that discovery was a personal kind of hard moment. And you know, even in, in owning the business, being up for director gigs, like I know I've lost because I'm a woman sometimes like you pitch to a group of guys, you hear some like inside scoop from your inside guy there and they're not coming to you.
Speaker 0 00:12:35 They're just not comfortable yet. Like, okay, like, so what I want to work with people that want to work with me because I'm brilliant. And because they see something special in the work and in the approach and if they can't get past feeling uncomfortable with having like, oh, a female leader, like that's not something I want to experience going into. And that experience is not going to be good for me. And I just don't have time in my life and space for those kinds of things. Like I want to work with people that want to work with me.
Speaker 2 00:13:14 It sounds like there's not a lot of like discouragement in your voice. When you talk about like, you feel like you've like lost things just because you're a woman. Have you always like, had that kind of like, level-headed thinking of like, well, I don't want to work with someone like that. I don't have time with that. Or has that come from like life lessons just being learned?
Speaker 0 00:13:31 Well, I think actually you're hitting on a really important question and awesome will totally relate to this. You absolutely cannot win them all. Yeah. Owning a business. Even before that, when I worked at super fed and digital kitchen, you pitch on a certain number of jobs, you've been on a certain number of jobs and you win a certain percentage of them. So the ones you win, you want to have a good time doing. And I have also learned that like, if that really cool thing goes away, there will be another one behind it. So that is something that has come over time. And so you just see, you know, and I think that loss is a natural part of the business, but also especially a designer, like you're pitching, even if your company wins the job, it's likely not going to be your solution because they put four like five solutions.
Speaker 0 00:14:22 So yeah. So you still lost as a designer, but yeah, you still get to make something that's cool and your work informs the process of what they like and don't like, and where they want to be. But the majority of the stuff you pitch and put out there is going to be rejected. And then as you move forward through the process, even if you do, when you're going to post things and then the client is going to say what to change. So there's this like natural, like rejection, rejection, rejection, rejection, while you're building something really beautiful. And so you have to kind of focus on the scenes of what's working and not what's being pushed aside, even if it's great, you know, even if it's great work that you're like, how could they not pick those? And there's a lot of that, you know, the focus on what is working on how to make that better.
Speaker 1 00:15:09 That's like trusting that flow of the process and just trusting that like, okay, there's going to be another gig there's going to be
Speaker 0 00:15:17 And
Speaker 1 00:15:17 Just keep, keep on looking. How can I be of service to this project? How can I make it better? How can I help? Yeah. There was,
Speaker 0 00:15:26 Yeah. I
Speaker 1 00:15:28 Was just going to say, this made me think of, um, yesterday I was doing an interview with Aaron for this keynote for a conference. And somebody asked the question, I and Erin gave an awesome answer. Somebody asked me, it's basically like, how do you deal with imposter syndrome? And Aaron was just like, yeah, I don't, I don't have that.
Speaker 0 00:15:48 You assume I do. If anything, I probably had the other is what I said, which is that I felt this like sense that like my opinion was necessary, even though I was young to get a total moron, you know, and totally inexperienced. Um, but I, but I didn't dress like, Hey, you have to get used to talking when you feel uncomfortable. And if you are worried about people not liking your opinion, ask other people for their opinion, compliment other people ask people about their process and how that informed that. And so that you get used to hearing your voice in the room.
Speaker 1 00:16:25 I also said something like, it was like, if you have a seat at the table, you know, you might as well talk or is it, is that, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Which I liked, you know, you're there, right? Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:36 Were there, I don't know. It's like getting on Sansa's lap and not asking fucking anything. How many times have we all been there? Yeah. Jews, right. shit. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:57 All right. So this one's for both of you, what is one thing about your job that you feel like you'll never get used to?
Speaker 0 00:17:05 You want to go,
Speaker 1 00:17:08 I'm letting it marinate. Uh, which is, here's where I'm at. I have two jobs. I feel like I'm always like, I'm also a Gemini, so it works for me really. So I have my job as an educator and then I have my job as a, as a commercial artist. Um, so which one? Which one should I answer?
Speaker 2 00:17:31 Ooh. I mean, I want to say both.
Speaker 1 00:17:33 Okay. That's fair. That's fair. I still need to think about it for a second.
Speaker 0 00:17:39 I think I'll never get you. As soon as the turnaround times. It's so fast, what people are asking for, like, especially with the level of fit and finish that we create, like, it just, it's going faster and faster and the tools have evolved to accommodate that. But like, it's, it's at the point where it doesn't even give you a night to sleep on something, you know, it's like, get out, you have more hands on it so that it leaves somebody get not set out of the car. If it's hard, hard to keep up with the pace. And I think students, that's one thing they don't realize coming into the industry is the pace is fast. So, and the amount of variations that you offer, because the pace is fast, the pace is fast is a lot, so it's a little bit like, okay, this one, this one, this one, this one. And, and then you're like, okay, so now we're going on here. This one, this one, this. Okay. And, and so that, it's more just selecting as opposed to like, oh, let's talk about what you post said, this one's work for this week. It's more,
Speaker 1 00:18:46 You know, iteration. Yeah. Iteration is a big part of it. I mean, and it's interesting, I think from an educational perspective too, it's an effective way to generate a lot of ideas, the journey at work to actually, and also get out of like a lot of the fluxing around and noodles. And it's just like, cool, this is looking interesting. Give me another five more examples or 10 more examples in that. And that I think I came up with an answer and I think it works for both.
Speaker 1 00:19:15 I think one of the things I'll never get used to, and I'm kind of glad that I won't get used to is, is this sort of surprise that I, you can keep learning as both an educator and as a commercial artist, just when I think I'm like, okay, I got this thing, I understand that. Or I got this thing figured out. It's like, oh wow, there's a whole nother way to look at this. Right. And you know, whether, you know, for commercial art, you know, there's periods now, it's, it's going on 20 years doing this where I've, I've hit some plateaus for a while, or it's just, I just think this is the way it's going to be in this context. And then something will happen or I'll do something. And I'm talking about this, like, like passion projects, I think are a great way for that.
Speaker 1 00:19:58 Where all of a sudden, I feel reinvented in the way that I see the work and the way I'm making the work. I mean, and it, and it's still a continuation of everything that came before, but it feels like my, my eyes, I'm seeing it a little fresher. And then it's the same thing with teaching, you know, where I think I've kinda like, okay, this is the way that I do this thing. And then working with students, I get to keep learning. And, but it's, it's one of those things I don't think I'll get used to it. Cause it's, that's maybe it's me. Maybe it's the human mind, but like, okay, this is how things are now. And then I'm like, oh, maybe it's not just that. Or I see it differently.
Speaker 0 00:20:41 Good answer. That's a good question. These are very good questions. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:20:49 Um, okay. This one's for Austin. So we all talk about behind your back about just how passionate you are and like motivated. And your stamina is just incredible. You go like all day. And so I'm curious about what, like drives that passion that you have, like for students. And it also seems to come out in your design as well. So like students and design in general, what like drives that passion for you?
Speaker 1 00:21:11 Well, first I'm glad that y'all, aren't talking about how I'm going to do
Speaker 1 00:21:19 That guy. So yeah, the passion, I mean, and this is interesting. This is fun. Cause it's like, I agree that I'm pretty driven and I do a lot and I do a lot on across things and, and I will say this, I bowed down to Aaron because I look at Aaron and she's like, I'm like, I just hustling to keep up. Like, like Aaron is like, yeah, she's next level on stamina. And, and just the amount of executive functions and switching sets that, um, I'm impressed, but I'm also like, you know, I, I, yeah, I, I, I do a lot. I do a lot and people often, you know, between teaching and freelance, my own work and writing and you know, no, let alone family and, and playing my Nintendo switch, you know, there's some, well, you know what it's part of, like, that's part of my decompressing, you know, that's like, I'm totally like, I don't feel bad about it when I go and play.
Speaker 1 00:22:23 Right. Cause I need that. Right. I don't feel it, you know, and, and I have a pretty active meditation practice I've done for a lot of years now that helps me kind of stay, keeps my mind and body in sync with each other. That's just part of it. But it's interesting. I mean, I think, you know, there's, we can get into like the, like, like what's the drive, you know, some of it is passion. I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, is it, is it fear? Is it fear of stopping? You know what I mean? Like, like what happens when you stop doing these things all the time? And I have had like times in my life where I've just, you know, had to stop doing things and just had to sort of pause and reflect and kind of yeah. And recenter myself and recenter my priorities. And, and, you know, there's that, I don't know, it's a little bit of a cliche, but that idea of like, we are human beings, not human doings, you know, and I can get lost in the doing, you know, I'm very grateful just because it's, I get to do a lot of the things I'm really passionate about, like for my life. Right. For like my vocation vocations, plural. Right. And like, so I'm really grateful for that.
Speaker 2 00:23:37 Actually. I want to kind of hear that same answer with you, Aaron, like what drives your cause he mentioned that you also have an insane amount of stamina, so
Speaker 0 00:23:44 Like drives that passion for you or whatever it is that drives you. I like doing things and getting things done and finishing things and making things. And I just like building stuff, you know? So I have like hobbies, but then hobbies turn into like passions that get woven into what I make and do. So like I own a motion design. Well, I own a production company. We do ton, ton, ton of motion design, but I was out shooting for the last two days. So there's also live action as a component of that. And just, I don't know. I feel like I'm always just making stuff or making new stuff to make. I'm just like a builder and not like an inventor and vendor, but like, I dunno, I feel like there's, if I see something missing or something I want to explore, I go, I dive into it and I treat it like, it's a job, even though there's no real anything pushing me to finish it or fully explore it.
Speaker 0 00:24:49 Like I treat it like somebody like looking over, like I have that list and I have to crank it out. So I, I feel like that is driving me. I, I have definitely been thinking a little bit more about life, the way Austin is. And I think for me, that's about how to engineer some freedom into the stuff I like doing and my time. And, but that freedom doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to like go chill on a beach somewhere. That's just not me. That freedom means like what, like what would that, what would I even want to do? I really do enjoy doing the work and empowering other people to do the work and helping clients and friends and all of this community evolve. And I'm seeing ways to evolve my own career. So I'm doing the work for that. So is it evolving in the context of my studio?
Speaker 0 00:25:46 Yes. It is evolving outside of the context of my studio. Yes. Like, but I have to do the work. And I think that that's something that like both Austin and I really know is like, you don't get there by just like jumping to do the work. If you want to be a writer, you got to write. If you want to be an artist, you gotta do art. If you want to explore a specific medium, you gotta buy it and start experimenting with it. Like you don't all of a sudden just become an expert influencer this that, you know, because you bought like podcasting equipment, like you have to do the work. Like it's just, so I like doing the work and I like, and then once I get there, I'm not like, woo I'm there. I'm like, what more, what more work can be done.
Speaker 1 00:26:36 Right. Right. I would, yeah. Along those lines, I think maybe we share similar thing. Like it's something that I have noticed in my life. Like I'll, you know, I charge up a mountain and it's just, I'm going up the mountain, the mountain and go. And then when I finally ascended the top, instead of like taking that minute to pause and enjoy it, it's like I'm charging down the mountain. You know what I mean? And to be conscious, to actually breathe, take a minute, like enjoy the view, feel it then charge down the mountain. Cause that's like the charge. Yeah. If anything, it's, it's probably trying to build in more downtime because it's like, it's not like I need to work on my hustle. It's like, I need to work on my show.
Speaker 0 00:27:24 This episode is getting really long here. So we're going to take a pause and come back next week to finish us off with Michelle and her interrogation of us.
Speaker 1 00:27:31 That's right. And we're going to talk about what students should be asking potential employers and Aaron and I are going to reveal some of our greatest weaknesses,
Speaker 0 00:27:41 Our kryptonite design crypto.
